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Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

thelastdriverlicenseholder.com

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Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#161

Post by rblatz »

jeffbee wrote: post #145
toomuchtodo wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would find it odd if they were not using precise positioning using local reference stations broadcasting corrections over IP or RF. EDIT: Appears GPS/IMU/LIDAR is sufficient, my mistake. TIL.

They're almost certainly using dead reckoning with wheel rotation sensors to get the precision they need in an urban environment where radios are kinda trash.

Tesla’s also use dead reckoning when GPS is lost. It’s way more accurate than I would have guessed. My GPS antenna was out for over a week and the map was only about 100ft off.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#162

Post by Natsu »

tjohns wrote: post #79
jerlam wrote: post #45

There is currently some kind of geomagnetic storm which is causing a lot of GPS tracks to be offset over the past few days. It's all over the running/cycling forums. Could be related, here's an example: https://old.reddit.com/r/Garmin/comments/vo17e2/the_magnetic...

NOAA doesn't list any meaningful geomagnetic storms right now: https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/communities/space-weather-enthusia... But that aside, I'd really hope that these cars are using professional WAAS-capable GPS receivers. Short of a major X-class flare which knocks out the WAAS geostationary satellites, the entire point of the system is to correct for these kinds of disturbances to the GPS signals.

Why does this make me wonder if something is going on with GPS due to the war in Ukraine?

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#163

Post by dclowd9901 »

jeshin wrote: post #156
jjulius wrote: post #96

With all of the talk, usually around Teslas but I suppose it applies to all EVs, that I've seen over the years akin to, "Just imagine how safe driving will be when every vehicle is FSD and can talk to one another," I have to ask... shouldn't we anticipate seeing similar issues to this in that scenario? I mean yeah, there will be different manufacturers so it's not like every car in a city could come to a standstill.…

I feel like a lot of people have kind of wisened up about this hypothetical future anyway, now that we're seeing FSD in practice. Sure, some problems would be eliminated by all cars being self driving, and the roads being tailored to that use case. But then, at the same time, trains literally run on tracks and they still have conductors.

The answer is going to look like: freeway and maybe roadway driving is autonomous while drivers are expected to takeover for irreconcilable issues. There can be no other way outside of someone actually factually creating general AI.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#164

Post by daniel-cussen »

nine_k wrote: post #136
OptionX wrote: post #122

I would expect the first driverless vehicles to be something like buses, metros, ferrys, etc. Something that always follow a predetermine route should have an easier time than a cab that must be able to drive basically anywhere. Still has to deal with unexpected things of course, the real world is chaotic, but AI manufacturers should try to limit the variables as much as they if they want to give a good showing to ge…

Bus drivers are paid to drive, and have a union. Buses are large, expensive, and few. Regular people drive cars out of necessity to commute. Cars are ubiquitous. Which market was easier to sell to investors?

Yeah but in SF there's enough every 9 minutes, and they don't make such great wages, get real.

People should get paid to drive their car to work. It's dangerous, has high liability for them in case of injury or litigation, and in any case they should be compensated for even driving at all.

That's because people like me can only ride bicycles because being such terrible drivers. Unless taking an amount of stimulants niggardly shrinks will never prescribe for the specific task of driving, driving would put many other people at risk and lead to an accident a day, whereas on a bike the maximum death toll is myself. And I suck up the accident with my adrenaline, my body, and the bike frame. Injury without guilt.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#165

Post by inferiorhuman »

ra7 wrote: post #6
AlotOfReading wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Background: I formerly worked at Cruise and specifically wrote large parts of the GNSS data pipeline. I would be surprised if that were the cause. Fine localization should be able to resolve without GNSS input (with caveats) and there are specific tested requirements to be able to tolerate a certain number of minutes of outage even in the absence of LIDAR before position accuracy degrades beyond acceptable limits. It…

Could this be due to bad mapping data at that particular location? Even if it was, wouldn’t they be able to pull over at a safe location with what they perceive in real time?

I'd venture to guess the self driving stuff is a lot buggier and a lot less mature than one might think, I'd also venture to guess it's poorly tested. I remember a couple years ago watching a Cruise driver force the car to make an illegal left turn off of Mission a few years back. That was around the time that I noticed they kept struggling to deal with right turns off of Folsom as well.

My guess is that their "fail safe" is to just stop and wait for a human to move the car. I doubt they are capable of safely passing a stopped car so when one goes tits up they all get stopped. The hubris of Cruise to test these things without drivers in a busy city is pretty rich.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#166

Post by nradov »

munchenphile wrote: post #52
kiba wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI is an extremely difficult challenge imposed by the current constraint. Change the constraint, then you don't need an AI to drive cars.

Yep, this is the plain reality. Self driving cars just feels like a bunch of engineers wanting to solve a really hard and really interesting problem. But is it really the right problem to solve? I don’t think so. Currently we have: >other unpredictable human-driven vehicles on the road >no sensors or passive/active guides in the physical infrastructure — guidance is completely determined onboard >no signage designed…

So you intend to ban bicycles from those areas? Because bikes are never going to have reliable V2V communication.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#167

Post by mh- »

Natsu wrote: post #162
tjohns wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NOAA doesn't list any meaningful geomagnetic storms right now: https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/communities/space-weather-enthusia... But that aside, I'd really hope that these cars are using professional WAAS-capable GPS receivers. Short of a major X-class flare which knocks out the WAAS geostationary satellites, the entire point of the system is to correct for these kinds of disturbances to the GPS signals.

Why does this make me wonder if something is going on with GPS due to the war in Ukraine?

EDIT: the following is incorrect per a reply below. Will leave the original comment below.

---

That was going to be my hypothesis. GPS resolution can be reduced in a conflict area.

I'll defer to someone with actual knowledge to add more info. :)

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#168

Post by nradov »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #106
maximus-decimus wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self driving would be worth it for trucking on its own and you're not gonna reduce trucking by making cities more walkable.

No, but trains could reduce trucking.

Where? A huge amount of freight already travels by train. Over-the-road trucks are mostly only used when trains are too slow for time-sensitive loads, or where it's impractical to lay tracks.

Re: Driverless robotaxi fleet paralyzed for hours in San Francisco

#170

Post by astrange »

jen20 wrote: post #138
LeoPanthera wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so tiresome that this (mostly false) story keeps coming up. The short version of the truth: The original owner did not buy AP. AP was enabled because of a bug. The dealer listed it as having AP included because, at the time, it was enabled. When ownership was transferred, the glitch was corrected, and AP was removed. The new owner bitched very loudly to the press, and Tesla restored AP to the car, for free, even…

If a dealer listed something as included, and it was not, I would be beyond livid, and they would be giving me a full refund.

Tesla doesn't have dealers. This sounds like a used car.
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