Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Deported

laphamsquarterly.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 141 posts

Re: The Deported

#91

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

m00dy wrote: post #73
sofixa wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally speaking genocides or ethnic cleaning is definitely not in Turkish culture Go visit Batak or any other site of Ottoman atrocities and then try again. Brutal ethnic cleansing was very much an Ottoman thing throughout Ottoman history, and especially so in the last couple of centuries of decline. Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times. > well, I'm not sure…

>> Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times. If we were that bad as you said in your comments, how would they preserve their language, religion and their identity ? I suggest you to take a deeper look at Ottoman's history and Turks. The way it works is that Ottomans used islam to convert non-muslim people.

The Ottoman Empire had a policy of religious tolerance, which was necessary because the ethnic Turks were a minority in the Empire and couldn't afford to cause widespread uprisings by denying people their religions, their customs, and maternal languages.

It doesn't change the fact that they still sent their troops (most of them not ethnic Turks, but Arabs, or children of the occupied people stolen and raised as faithful soldiers of the Empire) to drown entire cities and regions in blood as soon as they "raised their head" and demanded their independence.

For example:

The Constantinople massacre of 1821 was orchestrated by the authorities of the Ottoman Empire against the Greek community of Constantinople in retaliation for the outbreak of the Greek War of Independence (1821–1830). As soon as the first news of the Greek uprising reached the Ottoman capital, there occurred mass executions, pogrom-type attacks,[1] destruction of churches, and looting of the properties of the city's Greek population.[2][3] The events culminated with the hanging of the Ecumenical Patriarch, Gregory V and the beheading of the Grand Dragoman, Konstantinos Mourouzis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_during_the_Greek_War...

The Chios massacre (in Greek: Η σφαγή της Χίου, Greek pronunciation: [i sfaˈʝi tis ˈçi.u]) was the killing of tens of thousands of Greeks on the island of Chios by Ottoman troops during the Greek War of Independence in 1822.[2] Greeks from neighboring islands had arrived on Chios and encouraged the Chiotes (the native inhabitants of the island) to join their revolt. In response, Ottoman troops landed on the island and killed thousands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chios_massacre

The Ottomans gave incentives to their enslaved people to convert to Islam and become Ottomanised. Those were peaceful incentives. But if the people did not take the opportunity offerred to them, then their lives were worth nothing and they were only fodder for the Ottomans' blades. That is what one sees if one takes a "deeper look".

Re: The Deported

#92

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

trhway wrote: post #24
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think Putin regime is nazist I regret having to inform you that said family members might have fought against nazism but did fail to explain to you what it was.

just out of curiosity, if we take a very simple, very narrow and in my view obvious case, and i'm just wondering what do you see there. This is a video of Rogozin, the Putin's favorite who is the CEO of the cornerstone of Russian nationalistic pride - Roskosmos - and who is one of the most prominent political voices in the today's Russia, and what i see in this video is him leading a Nazi salute and the end of his Na…

Once again and people can downvote as much as they want nazism is the ideology of the nazi party of Germany. Its main characteristic are belief in the existence of a hierarchy of races dividing humanity, the superiority of the Arian race, deep antisemetism, the legitimacy of eugenics as a mean of society improvement, the legitimacy of implementing fascism and subvert the state in order to implement these racist policies, pangermanism and profound anti-Christianity.

As repugnant as it is, Russian ultranationalism is not nazism and Rogozin is not making a nazi salute. As much as you wish it to be, nazi is not a generic world.

Re: The Deported

#93

Post by [deleted] »

seydor wrote: post #78
niemandhier wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern Russian state is the product of several genocides too, so this particular example is probably not correct. From 1915 to 1945, probably over one million Russian Germans perished from unnatural causes under three successive Russian governments—those of Tsar Nicholas II, Lenin, and Stalin—chiefly by means of mass executions, forced labor, deliberate starvation, and brutal deportations. The Holodomor in the Uk…

you are right it s the worst example. Imagine if the british, french, spanish, portuguese went on genocides in order to keep their colonies, and we justified that 100 years later because "it's what they did at the time". The whole point of the nationalist movement was emancipation and the creation of new countries for former empire populations.

[deleted]

Re: The Deported

#94

Post by impossiblefork »

mrtksn wrote: post #58
impossiblefork wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're quite wrong: What was held by the Karabakh Armenians until last year was a region consisting of two parts. The former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast and a region which is de jure part of Azerbaijan. While the remainder of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast is indeed internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, it is not in fact part of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan seceded from the Soviet Union in accord…

> Thus the so-called Khojaly Massacre, while regrettable, was perfectly legal Wow, just wow. Defending the killing of civilians, including women and children and labelling it as "so-called massacre" doesn't deserve an answer.

It was, as I described, perfectly in accordance with the laws of war.

Furthermore, there's a special reason why it's not correct to classify it as a massacre: namely, those who deviated from the advance on the Armenian outpost were not killed. Some apparently froze to death in the mountains, but those who were captured were returned to Azerbaijan unharmed.

Re: The Deported

#95

Post by mda »

yywwbbn wrote: post #72
seydor wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At that point it must have been normal to react to these 'issues' with this much aggression. Not really, all empires were multicultural, e.g. russia, but while the Bolsheviks went to war, they did not genocide them. The modern state of turkey otoh is the result of 3-5 genocides, not one. Britain did not go on to genocide indians because it wanted their land

> The modern state of turkey otoh is the result of 3-5 genocides, not one. Also the population exchanges, by 1923 over 10% of the Turkish population was Christian and most of them moved to Greece. And if we’re talking about the USSR, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD seems awfully close to genocide “In Leningrad, the NKVD reviewed local telephone books and arrested almost 7,000 citizens wit…

Also the population exchanges, by 1923 over 10% of the Turkish population was Christian and most of them moved to Greece.

You forgot to mention the reciprocal, Turkish / Muslim population from Greece moved to Turkey at the same time.

Re: The Deported

#96

Post by m00dy »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #91
m00dy wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times. If we were that bad as you said in your comments, how would they preserve their language, religion and their identity ? I suggest you to take a deeper look at Ottoman's history and Turks. The way it works is that Ottomans used islam to convert non-muslim people.

The Ottoman Empire had a policy of religious tolerance, which was necessary because the ethnic Turks were a minority in the Empire and couldn't afford to cause widespread uprisings by denying people their religions, their customs, and maternal languages. It doesn't change the fact that they still sent their troops (most of them not ethnic Turks, but Arabs, or children of the occupied people stolen and raised as faith…

so, do you think Ottomans should have waited and sit back ? As you said, It was not under normal conditions as Greeks tried to setup their own state. Blood was shed and they won.

Re: The Deported

#97

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

m00dy wrote: post #96
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ottoman Empire had a policy of religious tolerance, which was necessary because the ethnic Turks were a minority in the Empire and couldn't afford to cause widespread uprisings by denying people their religions, their customs, and maternal languages. It doesn't change the fact that they still sent their troops (most of them not ethnic Turks, but Arabs, or children of the occupied people stolen and raised as faith…

so, do you think Ottomans should have waited and sit back ? As you said, It was not under normal conditions as Greeks tried to setup their own state. Blood was shed and they won.

The OP pointed out that "Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times."

Your comment implied this wasn't true: "If we were that bad as you said in your comments, how would they preserve their language, religion and their identity ?"

So then I pointed out that, yes, the Ottomans were "that bad" and they did routinely massacre Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Armenians, etc.

What are we still disagreeing about? It's not clear to me.

Re: The Deported

#98

Post by m00dy »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #97
m00dy wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so, do you think Ottomans should have waited and sit back ? As you said, It was not under normal conditions as Greeks tried to setup their own state. Blood was shed and they won.

The OP pointed out that "Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times." Your comment implied this wasn't true: "If we were that bad as you said in your comments, how would they preserve their language, religion and their identity ?" So then I pointed out that, yes, the Ottomans were "that bad" and they did routinely massacre Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Armenians, etc. Wha…

There is a slight difference between normal conditions vs war conditions. I think in war conditions, both sides take risks and eventually one of them wins. That's how it works.

Re: The Deported

#99

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

m00dy wrote: post #98
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP pointed out that "Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times." Your comment implied this wasn't true: "If we were that bad as you said in your comments, how would they preserve their language, religion and their identity ?" So then I pointed out that, yes, the Ottomans were "that bad" and they did routinely massacre Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Armenians, etc. Wha…

There is a slight difference between normal conditions vs war conditions. I think in war conditions, both sides take risks and eventually one of them wins. That's how it works.

So we are in agreement that "Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times". Correct?

Re: The Deported

#100

Post by m00dy »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #99
m00dy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a slight difference between normal conditions vs war conditions. I think in war conditions, both sides take risks and eventually one of them wins. That's how it works.

So we are in agreement that "Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times". Correct?

Not really. Under normal conditions, they were living in the empire peacefully as they were able to preserve their culture/language/identity.
Post reply on HN