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The Deported

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Re: The Deported

#71

Post by sofixa »

m00dy wrote: post #61
sofixa wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that the genocide is so heavily denied by modern Turkey ( Attaturk and onwards)? Is it only due do reparations or is there lingering ethnic... "superiority" remaining? Because at first glance, modern Turkey fought long and hard to distance itself from the Ottoman Empire, and make it well known they aren't a successor state. Why not pin all the blame for the genocide on the decadent Ottomans and be do…

[flagged]

> Generally speaking genocides or ethnic cleaning is definitely not in Turkish culture

Go visit Batak or any other site of Ottoman atrocities and then try again. Brutal ethnic cleansing was very much an Ottoman thing throughout Ottoman history, and especially so in the last couple of centuries of decline. Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times.

> well, I'm not sure about this but, If I were Ataturk, I would probably build a secular Ottoman state like Ottoman v2

Honestly, in the post-WWI landscape, who would have wanted that? Peoples wanted their own nation state, nobody was interested in living in a multi-ethnic empire where they have no voice.

> they were the ones fought like a real men

At Gallipoli, and fought like real... What's a stupid aggressive animal doing stupid mistakes and getting itself killed in droves? That one. The Ottoman war effort was a(n almost) total failure. The sheer incompetence of the Ottoman high command and generals is only matched by other bright minds like von Hotzendorf.

Re: The Deported

#72

Post by yywwbbn »

seydor wrote: post #40
_rgun wrote: post #22

As a Turk with very little interest to History, would like to share my guesses about viewpoints of these characters have. First of all I am very impressed about how modern the ambassador is for 192X. He is Liberal exactly like someone from USA would be today. Now! Liberalism is not a idea that is easily accessible back then. Let alone find a any group of people that will backup you in this way. Even in current Turkey…

> At that point it must have been normal to react to these 'issues' with this much aggression. Not really, all empires were multicultural, e.g. russia, but while the Bolsheviks went to war, they did not genocide them. The modern state of turkey otoh is the result of 3-5 genocides, not one. Britain did not go on to genocide indians because it wanted their land

> The modern state of turkey otoh is the result of 3-5 genocides, not one.

Also the population exchanges, by 1923 over 10% of the Turkish population was Christian and most of them moved to Greece.

And if we’re talking about the USSR, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD seems awfully close to genocide

“In Leningrad, the NKVD reviewed local telephone books and arrested almost 7,000 citizens with Polish-sounding name with the vast majority of such nominal "suspects" were executed within 10 days of arrest”

Re: The Deported

#73

Post by m00dy »

sofixa wrote: post #71
m00dy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Generally speaking genocides or ethnic cleaning is definitely not in Turkish culture Go visit Batak or any other site of Ottoman atrocities and then try again. Brutal ethnic cleansing was very much an Ottoman thing throughout Ottoman history, and especially so in the last couple of centuries of decline. Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times. > well, I'm not sure…

>> Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times.

If we were that bad as you said in your comments, how would they preserve their language, religion and their identity ? I suggest you to take a deeper look at Ottoman's history and Turks. The way it works is that Ottomans used islam to convert non-muslim people.

Re: The Deported

#74

Post by yywwbbn »

mrtksn wrote: post #50
zniturah wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Artsakh was Armenian land for centuries, thats the point your are missing.

Russia says the same thing for Ukraine and other parts of the Europe. Let's agree to disagree on this one.

This is an nonsensical comparison. As absurd as Putins claim is historically it has more ground to stand on , at least historically both Russia and Ukraine are (kind of) successors to the original Rus state centered around Kiev. Whereas Azerbaijan’s claim is basically based on the fact that they invaded the region and murdered or drove off the Armenians living there.

Obviously what happened hundreds of years ago should be irrelevant since the people currently living there had nothing to do with it. But also I don’t think we should deny the right of self determination to the people living there just because Stalin drew some line on a map close to century ago.

Re: The Deported

#75

Post by mrtksn »

yywwbbn wrote: post #74
mrtksn wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia says the same thing for Ukraine and other parts of the Europe. Let's agree to disagree on this one.

This is an nonsensical comparison. As absurd as Putins claim is historically it has more ground to stand on , at least historically both Russia and Ukraine are (kind of) successors to the original Rus state centered around Kiev. Whereas Azerbaijan’s claim is basically based on the fact that they invaded the region and murdered or drove off the Armenians living there. Obviously what happened hundreds of years ago shou…

Unfortunately when more than one group of people claim rights over a territory the only fair outcome is the one that comes after one of the groups compels the others to comply, usually though killing citizens capable to fight. The rights of the current occupants is always expected to be respected, i.e. when Armenia occupies part of Azerbaijan and vice versa it is expected that the locals keep their belongings. When this is not respected, we talk about war crimes and atrocities.

In the case of Armenia vs Azerbaijan, this time around the Azerbaijan came victorious. On the previous war it was the Armenia.

Anyway, I agree that people should have a right for self determination but unfortunately in the age of countries they will need to fight and win. Unfortunately, with the war technology we have this means huge tragedies.

Oh and the comparison with Ukraine is not nonsensical at all, the regions under Russian invasion are Russian-dominated places that declared independence from Ukraine almost a decade ago. The only new development is that those people finally have a state actor on their side. Why wouldn't you say that the Russians in Ukraine have the exact same self determination rights as the Armenians in Azerbaijan?

Re: The Deported

#77

Post by hoseja »

baybal2 wrote: post #7
trhway wrote: post #2

>We base our objections to the Armenians Objection to an ethnicity. Key indicator of genocide for any action taken based on such an objection. >on three distinct grounds. In the first place, they have enriched themselves at the expense of the Turks. In the second place, they are determined to domineer over us and to establish a separate state. In the third place, they have openly encouraged our enemies. They have ass…

Russia is coincindentally heading right the way of Ottoman empire, seemingly step, by step. Decades of futile attempts to retake Balkans after Greek revolt lit the fire in Europe, and caused a chain reaction of support for Ottoman dismantlement. For Russia to survive as a state in coming decades, it will not need a "Russian Washington," but rather somebody more like a Russian Ataturk.

And yet again, the problem is that the dismantlement wasn't thorough enough.

Re: The Deported

#78

Post by seydor »

niemandhier wrote: post #54
seydor wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At that point it must have been normal to react to these 'issues' with this much aggression. Not really, all empires were multicultural, e.g. russia, but while the Bolsheviks went to war, they did not genocide them. The modern state of turkey otoh is the result of 3-5 genocides, not one. Britain did not go on to genocide indians because it wanted their land

The modern Russian state is the product of several genocides too, so this particular example is probably not correct. From 1915 to 1945, probably over one million Russian Germans perished from unnatural causes under three successive Russian governments—those of Tsar Nicholas II, Lenin, and Stalin—chiefly by means of mass executions, forced labor, deliberate starvation, and brutal deportations. The Holodomor in the Uk…

you are right it s the worst example. Imagine if the british, french, spanish, portuguese went on genocides in order to keep their colonies, and we justified that 100 years later because "it's what they did at the time". The whole point of the nationalist movement was emancipation and the creation of new countries for former empire populations.

Re: The Deported

#79

Post by kofejnik »

trhway wrote: post #24
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think Putin regime is nazist I regret having to inform you that said family members might have fought against nazism but did fail to explain to you what it was.

just out of curiosity, if we take a very simple, very narrow and in my view obvious case, and i'm just wondering what do you see there. This is a video of Rogozin, the Putin's favorite who is the CEO of the cornerstone of Russian nationalistic pride - Roskosmos - and who is one of the most prominent political voices in the today's Russia, and what i see in this video is him leading a Nazi salute and the end of his Na…

This needs more upvotes

Re: The Deported

#80

Post by akhmatova »

f6v wrote: post #36
trhway wrote: post #2

>We base our objections to the Armenians Objection to an ethnicity. Key indicator of genocide for any action taken based on such an objection. >on three distinct grounds. In the first place, they have enriched themselves at the expense of the Turks. In the second place, they are determined to domineer over us and to establish a separate state. In the third place, they have openly encouraged our enemies. They have ass…

> Nazi Russia Be honest, you came here just to write this.

Sometimes analogies actually do apply.
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