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The Deported

laphamsquarterly.org

51–60 of 141 posts

Re: The Deported

#51
post #3

“I wish,” Talaat now said, “that you would get the American life-insurance companies to send us a complete list of their Armenian policy holders. They are practically all dead now and have left no heirs to collect the money. It of course all escheats to the state. The government is the beneficiary now. Will you do so?” If anybody else is wondering what happened with some of those life insurance policies, The New York…

That's really something! I mean, the state already got all their possessions, that's par for the course, same as the Nazis did with the Jews, but I don't think the Nazis thought about also collecting the life insurance...

Re: The Deported

#52
> Talaat’s first objection was merely an admission that the Armenians were more industrious and more able than the dull-witted and lazy Turks

Right. I wonder, precisely how bias is this great ambassador against the Turks?

Do you know what the truth behind it all is? Nations are violent. They tend to overreact in terrible murderous ways. What’s worse, their will always be enough support in the hardliners in their population. Look at world history: the Americans committed genocide against the Natives with the support of the majority (heck more than half today pretend like nothing wrong happened). The British and French and Japanese committed genocide (all over the world) with the support of a population pretending like they are spreading civilization. The British were literally smuggling opium into China despite a ban by the Chinese. The Germans murdered millions in an attempt to ethnically cleanse with the support of their people. The Israelis are currently ethnically cleansing Palestine — and it is the Israeli people themselves who are doing this.

States are violent. Savage. Terrible in their overreactions and they tend to overreact. If the Armenians did indeed sabotage the Turks during the war with Russia then they should have fled or taken up arms right against the Turks when their sabotage failed to lead to a complete defeat of the Turks. In any country west or east — rebelling against the government and aiding foreign adversaries is going to lead to violence and that violence is going to be supported by the people.

Terrible world we live in where those that rise to power are savage in their pursuit of increasing/maintaining power.

Re: The Deported

#54
post #40
post #22

As a Turk with very little interest to History, would like to share my guesses about viewpoints of these characters have. First of all I am very impressed about how modern the ambassador is for 192X. He is Liberal exactly like someone from USA would be today. Now! Liberalism is not a idea that is easily accessible back then. Let alone find a any group of people that will backup you in this way. Even in current Turkey…

> At that point it must have been normal to react to these 'issues' with this much aggression. Not really, all empires were multicultural, e.g. russia, but while the Bolsheviks went to war, they did not genocide them. The modern state of turkey otoh is the result of 3-5 genocides, not one. Britain did not go on to genocide indians because it wanted their land

The modern Russian state is the product of several genocides too, so this particular example is probably not correct.

From 1915 to 1945, probably over one million Russian Germans perished from unnatural causes under three successive Russian governments—those of Tsar Nicholas II, Lenin, and Stalin—chiefly by means of mass executions, forced labor, deliberate starvation, and brutal deportations.

The Holodomor in the Ukraine took place in the 1930.

In addition there was large scale deportation of ethnic groups, which effectively also amounted to genocide due to harsh living conditions forced on the deported.

A similar case could be made against Britain, with the difference that they were (mostly) done with genociding by 1930.

Re: The Deported

#55
post #53

alright, experienced Turk here. I have been living abroad almost 8 years already... Ask me anything...

Why do you think that the genocide is so heavily denied by modern Turkey ( Attaturk and onwards)? Is it only due do reparations or is there lingering ethnic... "superiority" remaining? Because at first glance, modern Turkey fought long and hard to distance itself from the Ottoman Empire, and make it well known they aren't a successor state. Why not pin all the blame for the genocide on the decadent Ottomans and be done with it?

Re: The Deported

#56

> Talaat’s first objection was merely an admission that the Armenians were more industrious and more able than the dull-witted and lazy Turks Right. I wonder, precisely how bias is this great ambassador against the Turks? Do you know what the truth behind it all is? Nations are violent. They tend to overreact in terrible murderous ways. What’s worse, their will always be enough support in the hardliners in their popu…

We can still recognize that horrible injustices have been made and attempt to do better. Past injustices doesn't justify the ongoing ones in Yemen, Palestine, Ukraine, China (Uyghurs), etc.

Re: The Deported

#57
post #38
post #37

And with all that genocide talk, Turkey is a NATO member and was(technically is?) an EU candidate. Moreover, rumors are, Finland and Sweden will submit to Turkish demands regarding Kurds. Turkey has also led a military campaign against Armenia together with their satellite just recently. Maybe it really doesn’t bother western liberal democracies whether genocide happened. And it’s only used as a tool.

> Turkey has also led a military campaign against Armenia together with their satellite just recently That is not true, in 2020 Azerbaijan successfully liberated a region that was under Armenian occupation since 1994. I say liberated because that land was and is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Also, Azerbaijan suffered atrocities conducted by the Armenians, for example the Khojaly massacre[0]. Yes T…

You're quite wrong:

What was held by the Karabakh Armenians until last year was a region consisting of two parts. The former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast and a region which is de jure part of Azerbaijan.

While the remainder of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast is indeed internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, it is not in fact part of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan seceded from the Soviet Union in accordance with the Soviet secession law. This law can be found on the homepage of Michigan State University, here:https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2/shevarnadze-resigns/she...

The law is from April 3, 1990 and the relevant part is article 3 which reads as follows:

``Article 3. In a Union republic which includes within its structure autonomous republics, autonomous oblasts, or autonomous okrugs, the referendum is held separately for each autonomous formation. The people of autonomous republics and autonomous formations retain the right to decide independently the question of remaining within the USSR or within the seceding Union republic, and also to raise the question of their own state-legal status.´´

That is, for the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast to secede with Azerbaijan there'd have to be a vote in the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast and the 'join the Azerbaijani SSR in seceding' option would have to win. Otherwise the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast would remain in the Soviet Union, or raise the question of its own secession.

The Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast became independent only with the final dissolution of the USSR. Azerbaijan's invasion of the NKAO was at first the invasion of the Soviet Union and then later on, an invasion of the now unrecognized successor state-ification of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast. In their attack on the Soviet NKAO and later the statified, independent NKAO Azerbaijan then lost, to the degree that parts that are de jure part of Azerbaijan were occupied the Karabakh Armenians. These parts were indeed retaken by Azerbaijan, but parts of the NKAO were also taken, and Azerbaijan's claim to these is invalid.

Furthermore, with regard to the Wikipedia article you link, it contains the line:

en "a large column of residents, accompanied by a few dozen retreating fighters, fled the city as it fell to Armenian forces. It is reported that as they approached the border with Azerbaijan, they came across an Armenian military post and were cruelly fired upon".

Such an attack, as described-- i.e. firing on a mixed column advancing on an outpost is permissible according to the laws of war. Thus the so-called Khojaly Massacre, while regrettable, was perfectly legal. This is presumably why Azerbaijan has not pursued the Khojaly Massacre as a war crime in international courts, despite its important role in its internal historiography. Indeed,

Re: The Deported

#58
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Turkey has also led a military campaign against Armenia together with their satellite just recently That is not true, in 2020 Azerbaijan successfully liberated a region that was under Armenian occupation since 1994. I say liberated because that land was and is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Also, Azerbaijan suffered atrocities conducted by the Armenians, for example the Khojaly massacre[0]. Yes T…

You're quite wrong: What was held by the Karabakh Armenians until last year was a region consisting of two parts. The former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast and a region which is de jure part of Azerbaijan. While the remainder of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast is indeed internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, it is not in fact part of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan seceded from the Soviet Union in accord…

> Thus the so-called Khojaly Massacre, while regrettable, was perfectly legal

Wow, just wow. Defending the killing of civilians, including women and children and labelling it as "so-called massacre" doesn't deserve an answer.

Re: The Deported

#59
post #3

“I wish,” Talaat now said, “that you would get the American life-insurance companies to send us a complete list of their Armenian policy holders. They are practically all dead now and have left no heirs to collect the money. It of course all escheats to the state. The government is the beneficiary now. Will you do so?” If anybody else is wondering what happened with some of those life insurance policies, The New York…

Archive link: https://archive.is/bJKvS

Re: The Deported

#60
post #3

“I wish,” Talaat now said, “that you would get the American life-insurance companies to send us a complete list of their Armenian policy holders. They are practically all dead now and have left no heirs to collect the money. It of course all escheats to the state. The government is the beneficiary now. Will you do so?” If anybody else is wondering what happened with some of those life insurance policies, The New York…

Disturbing, isn't it? Turks might have collected their possessions and even went after the life insurances but Turks lost so much more.

The Armenians were part of the Ottoman society and their contributions were invaluable.

Today in Turkey, you can still see their legacy all over the place. The best neighbourhoods to live in Istanbul are those who used to have a large Armenian population. Neighbourhoods with concentration of cultural heritage that is still alive often have an Armenian church somewhere. A civilian building with a great architecture? It was probably built by Armenians or Greeks who were uprooted during the collapse of the Ottoman empire. You can see the pattern al over Istanbul and Turkey. When you visit Turkey, pay attention of the writings on old and beautiful apartments or houses and more often than not you will see that those writings are not in Turkish or Arabic but Armenian, Greek or Hebrew. In the context of the Ottoman Empire, Turks were the warriors and the rulers and the local minorities were the artisans, the scientists, businesspeople.

If Turkey managed to preserve its Armenian or Greek minorities, the country would have been much much nicer and sane place. I hope that one day the country will make peace with its past and have its minorities back again.

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