Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad • Hacker News Board

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#121

Post by bengl3rt » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 4:58 PM UTC

makira wrote: post #42

The problem with the current sandboxing is the missing entitlements, for simple things like: - Using the burning framework (cd & dvd burning) - Interfacing with Apple Remotes - Having a shared container between a main app and a helper app Also, many utilities will have to be removed from the App Store because of sandboxing, and that will likely cut revenues dramatically for those developers.

Yep, looks like whatever version of my app (DubPlate) that's up on the store in March '12 is the version that's going to be there in perpetuity, because it can't be updated for the sandbox on account of its using the CD burner pretty much as a core feature.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#122

Post by recoiledsnake » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 5:13 PM UTC

eddieplan9 wrote: post #114

recoiledsnake wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This article mostly seems to ignore the fact that you can still distribute apps outside of the App Store. Sure, but when Apple starts claiming and advertising that all Mac Store apps are secure(indirectly implying that external apps are not or may not be), external apps will have a much harder time appealing to the casual crowd, and for some apps living on thin margins, might be a death knell as more and more Macs g…

I cannot see how this is bad for competition. Within the App Store, the apps are subject to the same restrictions and it is fair competition. Outside of the App Store, you are not subject to the restrictions, and hopefully you can - and you should - build something that is impossible to achieve under the App Store restrictions, and you get your competitive advantages. If you just hate the App Store idea, and you don'…

The problem is visibility and the appearance of security. A significant number of users won't search beyond the app store and just assume that such apps do not exist if they can't find it on the App store. They are conditioned to do that from their iOS experience, so indeed this is a new bigger hurdle for the non-sandboxed apps and for some(not all) it could mean going out of business inspite of having a good product right now. Also, some people will be conditioned to thinking(rightly or wrongly) App Store = safe, Web programs = unsafe.

> if your customers like the App Store,

Of course they will like it, it's front and center and easy to operate. How is that the dev's fault?

>This is pure Darwinism.

This is nothing like Darwinism. Perhaps it would be, if you assume that the sunlight, forest cover, predators and water supply were able to be controlled by a company.

If you include advanced features in your app and thus are pushed out to an external distribution but your competitor releases with only limited features, who is going to make more money? And forget about a Lite version linking to the Pro one, that's prohibited too. The only "evolution" that will happen is that this will lead many small and mid developers to cut out features and operate only within a sandbox so as to get traction.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#123

Post by arron61 » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 5:18 PM UTC

dlikhten wrote: post #22

nhaehnle wrote: post #2

In general, this type of sandbox is a Good Thing. I would love to live in a world where the default environment for any program is a very limited sandbox that can only interact with the outside world via standardized UI elements. That is, outside a data store specific to the application, it can only access files via the standard dialogs, and so forth. The potential for malware distribution would be significantly redu…

Sandboxing is great since less and less control is in the hands of the app. I am sure apple will keep rolling out features expanding sandboxing, this is just the default impl. This also means that basically it will be harder and harder for apps to be malware in an already hostile system. I wish android had this. Android needs this much more than iOS.

Android does have sandboxing and its much better in than iOS. Each app runs in its own VM instance and requests for permissions. Additionally each app can also call other apps via intents. This allows for great sandboxing and reutilization.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#124

Post by guywithabike » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 5:20 PM UTC

super_mario wrote: post #44

Angostura wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would worry me if the AppStore were the only way to get aplications on to your Mac. I can see it being very disapointing for developers who enjoyed the convenience of the AppStore, but need additional functions. But I guess they will have to sell ex-Store I can also see the benefit of Apple being able to say that 'Anything you buy on the Store is safe(tm)'. However if Apple every makes teh Appstore a compulsory…

Give it a release or two and app store will be the only way to get software on your locked down appliance owned by Apple.

You're basing this information off what? Just your wild preconceived notions?

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#125

Post by guywithabike » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 5:21 PM UTC

super_mario wrote: post #43

As a die hard Mac user, fuck Apple and the Mac. Honestly. After the rumor they are killing off Mac Pro, and this insane gestapo shit already under way in Lion (which I don't use), I really don't want to be associated with Apple in any way.

Calm down. You may want to go for a walk outside. Or talk to an anger management counselor.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#126

Post by recoiledsnake » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 5:22 PM UTC

super_mario wrote: post #47

cageface wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AudioUnit plugins have strict realtime requirements that won't work with message passing too. If Apple disallows plugins that will be the end of the Mac as a pro audio platform. Not that a lot of plugin developers would mind so much after the insane platform churn at Cupertino in this last decade, but it's hard for me to imagine Apple would go that far.

Apple can't get out of Pro market fast enough. They already killed XServe, they "deprecated" Java, which means no chance in hell anyone will try to host their app server on Mac, and now even develop on Mac, they haven't updated their Pro audio software in almost 5 years, the fiasco with FCP X (complete rejection from actual pro users), and most recent rumor they will kill off Mac Pro as well. Apple wants to be handhe…

There's some chatter about the Pro line going away too.

http://blogs.computerworld.com/19195/apple_kills_the_mac_pro...

As with all Apple rumors, take it with a bucket of salt, they might announce a new line tomorrow for all you know.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#127

Post by ja2ke » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 5:25 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #111

ja2ke wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Apple likes that their computers are used to make the content that people use their computers to consume. I think it will take them a while to give that up. I also think that, eventually, they WILL give that up -- it just won't be for a while yet -- and that's probably about when I'll stop using Apple products.

that's probably about when I'll stop using Apple products Because Apple is popular, everybody is copying them, so then it's going to be too late for you to stop.

I don't know if that's true. There are a lot of professionals in the visual arts who need monstrous, component-driven, customizable workhorse computers to do what they do, and that won't change any time soon because their job depends on working on or near the cutting edge of what hardware can output.

Apple has served that market (or at least the front-end focused part of it) pretty well in graphic design and video for a long time, but even if that market becomes too small or too complicated for Apple, those people will still need their machines and their systems, and their business will be big enough for someone.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#128

Post by Limes102 » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 5:44 PM UTC

The only time I'm going to feel concerned about the sandboxing on Mac OS apps is if it's forced onto all applications.

If that happens, I shall leave Mac just like I did Windows and be forced to use Linux... I can't say I particularly like the new layout of Ubuntu so maybe I should just quite computing completely :'(

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#129

Post by Wowwhatisthe » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 5:45 PM UTC

Clearly, to most intelligent humans, Apple is trying to push certain software off of the App Store. Like Anti-virus programs, or programs that require plugins.

That's their choice. If you want to sell those apps, you can't use the App Store.

There is no problem... quit whining kids!

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#130

Post by rbanffy » Thu, Nov 03, 2011, 5:46 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #111

ja2ke wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Apple likes that their computers are used to make the content that people use their computers to consume. I think it will take them a while to give that up. I also think that, eventually, they WILL give that up -- it just won't be for a while yet -- and that's probably about when I'll stop using Apple products.

that's probably about when I'll stop using Apple products Because Apple is popular, everybody is copying them, so then it's going to be too late for you to stop.

We'll always have Linux.

At least until UEFI Secure Boot becomes mandatory.