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Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

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Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#101

Post by flomo »

halostatue wrote: post #74
voxmatt wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what the article claims: my understanding is that the sandbox restricts all non-user initiated actions. That is, if a user initiates it by clicking, dragging, OK-ing, etc., then all the old system interactions are still allowed. If you want to take a screenshot, of course you can so long as the user hits a keyboard combo to do it. Where it's a real hurdle, however, is for those programs who have to monitor and int…

There's APIs to interact with the calendar store; no calendar application should ever be accessing the calendar files directly—so apps like Fantastical are probably already OK. I haven't deeply examined the sandboxing rules and capabilities, but I think that this could improve application interoperability because they will need to work through APIs directly rather than through filesystem backdoors.

The prominent API for this type of data exchange is AppleEvents, which apparently won't be allowed without special permission.

(Perhaps there is some other sandbox-friendly way to get calendar info ... I don't know.)

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#102

Post by jarek »

robterrell wrote: post #38
statictype wrote: post #3

This would worry me if there weren't at least two other major Operating Systems available to choose from. The Mac is moving more towards simplicity and safety - targeting normal consumers. That's fine. Ironically, now Linux and Windows (and anything else that comes up down the line) will have to serve as the 'Computer for the rest of us'

Ironically, you got it backwards. You're "us". Whereas "the rest of us" = non-computer experts, anyone who prefers simplicity and safety. That crowd has always been the Mac's bread and butter. When we see signs that Apple will block software installation outside the App Store, then I'll grab a pitchfork. Until then, I think this is good for most users.

I'm sure you will be able to reason it away, just like you did on iOS. "I can still jailbreak" might be the mantra.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#103

Post by bad_user »

Karunamon wrote: post #76
dlikhten wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sandboxing is great since less and less control is in the hands of the app. I am sure apple will keep rolling out features expanding sandboxing, this is just the default impl. This also means that basically it will be harder and harder for apps to be malware in an already hostile system. I wish android had this. Android needs this much more than iOS.

Why is this gettting downvoted? It's good security practice, and the fact that Android needs better sandboxing was a foregone conclusion.

Because all Android apps are sandboxed and have to request explicit permissions for connecting to the Internet, reading or writing the user's contacts, accessing the user's pictures and so on and so forth.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#104

Post by ja2ke »

jerf wrote: post #92
saturdaysaint wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. The gadget-oriented press misses it completely, but Apple's history of catering to creative professionals and media industries goes just as deep as any of their control freak tendencies. Coming straight from Jobs, the purpose of these computers was to serve the arts. They're deeply attuned to the technical requirements (eg plugins) for creative software as well as to what creative pros of all stripes are using.…

Question. What percentage of their sales in this quarter or the last were to support Pro Tools or Illustrator installs? Are you sure they won't trade that away to Windows for a chance to improve their lockdown? You still seem to be working under the mental model that was created for Apple's actions when those apps were basically the only thing keeping Apple a going concern at all. That is not their current status any…

I think Apple likes that their computers are used to make the content that people use their computers to consume. I think it will take them a while to give that up. I also think that, eventually, they WILL give that up -- it just won't be for a while yet -- and that's probably about when I'll stop using Apple products.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#105

Post by kstenerud »

tomlin wrote: post #97
kstenerud wrote: post #70

One problem with sandboxing is that it stifles innovation. Many of the innovations in computers (dynamic libraries, drivers, plugins, screen grabbing, password managers, etc) came from being able to do anything on your computer. Once the sandbox lockdown is complete, you won't be able to invent new techniques that require entitlements the gatekeeper hasn't thought of already. The sandbox marks the end of the open sys…

> plus it will allow them to finally kill Flash off all Apple platforms for good... You can't declare that sandboxing will destroy innovation, but also actively persist that killing Flash is a good idea . Not saying you are, but you know others will. Flash is often used as a petri dish - a way to create new experiences and test them with a real audience. YouTube, Blog.tv, many experimental video / social integration…

Sorry, my point was supposed to be that killing flash is one of the things that Apple wants desperately to do. I'm saying it in the sense that it's a BAD thing, not a good thing.

Same goes for hobbling or eliminating competing software by banning it from the app store or playing by different internal rules (entitlements not available to outside developers, for example), or strategically refusing to grant entitlements from on high.

Basically, Apple is doing successfully what Microsoft failed to do. The difference is that Apple is being celebrated for doing what Microsoft was reviled for attempting. You certainly don't hear mention of the Sherman act when Apple locks a competing app out of the iOS ecosystem, and I doubt things will be different in the locked down Mac ecosystem.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#106

Post by Tichy »

dmbaggett wrote: post #48

This is all so well-played by Apple: evolve ever more locked down systems in seemingly consumer-friendly ways. Once consumers forget they can even install their own applications (except through the app store), OS X distribution will be just as heavily moderated by Apple as iOS distribution. Expect Apple, Microsoft, and Google to exert ever more control over distribution. The software industry is evolving into the "st…

If Google starts doing that to Android, why would I not just buy an iPhone...

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#108

Post by seanalltogether »

saturdaysaint wrote: post #50

This article mostly seems to ignore the fact that you can still distribute apps outside of the App Store. In fact, considering the falling costs of hosting and easy access to marketing tools (look at the quality of the website for any Mac App), it's probably never been easier. For pro apps with dedicated audiences (see: Adobe, Ableton, Avid, Nuance) which is just about anything with a plugin architecture, the App Sto…

For simple utility apps that cost less then $5 you really can't do your own distribution model, the amount of money you would make is paltry compared to the dollars the MAS brings in. Trust me, I know http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/space-gremlin/id414515628?mt=...

I'm sad to see that this move by apple will kill off a lot of utility apps that are bringing in decent income for people.

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#109

Post by guard-of-terra »

gcv wrote: post #82
guard-of-terra wrote: post #57

Don't they distribute xcode via appstore? it obviously dould not fit in the sandbox. If they make it an exception, can't they be hammered for monopolizing the development tools in the app store for themself?

Apple distributes the Xcode installer through the App Store. Normal App Store restrictions don't apply.

Can anybody else distribute a foo installer, so normal restrictions would not apply?

Re: Why the Mac App Sandbox makes me sad

#110

Post by phoboslab »

gcv wrote: post #82
guard-of-terra wrote: post #57

Don't they distribute xcode via appstore? it obviously dould not fit in the sandbox. If they make it an exception, can't they be hammered for monopolizing the development tools in the app store for themself?

Apple distributes the Xcode installer through the App Store. Normal App Store restrictions don't apply.

How exactly does an installer that can write to any location on your disk fit into a restricted AppStore?

Also, does this mean I'm free to distribute my malware installer through the AppStore? After all, it's just an installer.

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