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A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

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Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#121
post #83
post #41

I use Ubuntu as my exclusive desktop OS. Ubuntu / Linux has far bigger problems than Unity. (Jump to point 5 for conclusion). 1. There are huge regressions. With the upgrade to 11.10 my laptop's battery life has been cut from 5-6 hours to 2-2.5 hours. This is on an Asus UL machine that on Windows gets 10 hours. This may be a kernel issue, but Canonical could add a lot of value by at least warning, or better, fixing/m…

Regarding #1, it's not necessarily a kernel problem. One bloated program running in the background could be using a bit too much CPU and disk. "Modern" desktop environments love those programs, for some reason. It could be a lack of support for a specific advanced power-saving feature at kernel level, but that wouldn't be my first guess..

To help figure out the real cause, start with powertop: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2008/06/19/extend-your-battery-l...

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#122
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unity exists because every other Linux GUI has > fallen victim to this process That's very debatable. According to me, Gnome 2.3 is by far the best designed UX for a desktop operating system. Like most people, I generalize based on my own limited experience, and I have seen people grow up and learn how to use a computer in Gnome who were disgusted by Windows and OSX user interfaces. Like all animals, humans can be…

As an OS X user, I would call OS X the opposite of "app centric". It's document-centric first. Apps are binding glue, but windows that represent documents come first. A window representing one document will never switch to representing another. It will always open a new one. The titlebar of a document holds an icon that represents the document, and can be dragged around. It can be right clicked to see the document's…

>A window representing one document will never switch to representing another. It will always open a new one.

Except for the Finder in its default configuration. (Opening a folder does not open a new window unless the user has changed the Finder using Finder > Preferences > General.)

But more importantly, the Dock is app-centric whereas the task bar in Gnome 2 and in Windows 95 through Window XP is window-centric. I can live with the Dock, but I'd rather have a task bar or more precisely a task bar plus a one-click way to open heavily-used apps such as is provided by both the Gnome Panel and the "panel" or "bar" at the bottom of Windows 95 through Windows XP.

I can't live with Apple's Expose as the normal way to switch between windows. (And Spotlight is too slow on my 2006 Macbook as a means to switch to or start apps). To switch between windows, I use OS X's facilities for app switching, and rely on every app having only one or two windows open. To switch between apps, I use the dock or I use a function key -- four of my function keys' having been bound (using Spark) to my most-heavily-used apps, namely Emacs, browser, IM client and Finder. I have not tried OS X Lion yet.

I definitely can't live with Spaces after having used the simple and sane workspaces of Gnome 2.

So I agree with old-gregg that these are areas where OS X is weak compared to Gnome 2 on Linux. (I prefer OS X overall though at least on laptops.)

ADDED. When I ran Gnome 2, it was no trouble to have ten terminal windows open. Since I started running OS X, I have worked around OS X's less capable window-management facilities by upgrading my Emacs skills so that instead of using terminal windows, I now use Emacs buffers to interact with shells and other "text-mode command-line" programs. (There's no problem having many Emacs buffers open at the same time, and I only ever have one Emacs window (or "frame" in Emacs terminology) open at a time.)

ADDED. Moreover, when I ran Gnome 2, it was no trouble to have 3 or 4 or more Firefox windows open. One thing that makes OS X a little more comfortable for me is that when I switched from Firefox to Chrome, I stopped having dozens of tabs open with the result that I am able to manage most of the time with only one browser window open. (Fewer tabs are required in Chrome because Chrome does not have Firefox's bug in which invoking the back button or the history menu frequently takes many seconds to complete.) In other words, I got by in OS X by rearranging my life so that I did not run any apps with a lot of windows open.

ADDED. None of these difference between Gnome 2 and OS X is a huge deal, but it does shed light on the quality of decision making at Canonical these days to note that they decided to transition from the Gnome 2 way to the OS X way in one of the few areas in which Gnome 2 is better. (Hmm, if Canonical switches to the OS X way of doing cut and paste, in which you have to press Command-C or Control-C to get the selection into the clipboard, that would be further evidence that they do not know what they are doing.)

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#123
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A year ago the standard response to a new user inquiring about Linux was "install Ubuntu, it's easy, there's lots of help available. Go get 'em tiger." Now, Ubuntu is usually spoken of with a kind of regretful contempt. True. I used to suggest Ubuntu myself (actually, I was one of the people who started with Ubuntu, now I'm on Arch). I've switched to either suggesting to install one of the forks of Ubuntu (mostly K…

Good grief please don't suggest crunchbang for new users!! Unless it's used as a transition for a clueful, but new to Linux, user who's going to learn a bit and then move to a different distribution. (Probably Arch or Tiny Core, if you're suggesting CrunchBang.)

>Unless it's used as a transition for a clueful, but new to Linux, user who's going to learn a bit and then move to a different distribution.

Exactly to those I would point to #!. By the FSM, I would never suggest #! to a user that doesn't already have a degree of technical knowledge.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#124
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never really saw the point of Xubuntu--I mean, 10 minutes in Ubuntu will give you the same thing, why have an whole separate distribution when the biggest change is the default desktop environment?

It's not a whole separate distribution. It's akin to Fedora's "spins": an ISO with a different default set of packages. Nothing prevents you from installing Ubuntu proper and then "apt-get install xubuntu-desktop" on it. I agree, though, that this distinction is not clear enough by reading Xubuntu (or Kubuntu, Edubuntu, etc) websites.

Ah, that definitely makes a lot more sense. Coming from Debian, I'm used to just saying "apt-get install " and switching to it immediately, so the Xubuntu/Kubuntu/Edubuntu thing always tripped me up--but I guess the point isn't that you could do it the way I'm used to, but that you can more easily just grab an ISO to default the way you like it.

Me, I usually just install a very basic Debian and pile crap on top as I go :)

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#125

I guess I'm confused about the whole issue. Personally I hate Unity, which is why I installed Gnome 2. Isn't that the point of Linux? Being able to customize it to your liking?

I am happy with gnome 2 as well for the most part. Is it still under active development?

No. There's a fork, though, called Mate (https://github.com/Perberos/Mate-Desktop-Environment).

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#126
post #99
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#3 is one of my biggest gripes, in general. The Gimp is one of the worst products I've ever taken the time to try to learn. I'm not just tweaking photos, I'm trying to do some work as a professional, working on files given to me by other professionals. Forget about trying to open a PSD with more than a couple layers on it. Don't even bother. And the interface... I don't mind spending a week or two learning an interfa…

Gimp's latest update includes interface changes: http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/GIMP_2.6_Released_Off...

That is an article from 2008 - hardly 'latest'.

As for Gimp itself: I must admit that I love it and love it a lot more than Photoshop. I use it to post-process the pictures that I take (example: http://www.flickr.com/photos/valanx/sets/72157627905845341/ ) and while I have no need for anything fancy, I have yet to find something that beats the speed of the Gimp.

Yes, Alt+c, adjust, Alt+i, s - you do have to get down to your keyboard if you want speed, but once you're fluent with that stuff, you just breeze through it. Put differently: The Gimp gets out of my way and provides just the functionality that I need. I love that.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy with gnome 2 as well for the most part. Is it still under active development?

No. There's a fork, though, called Mate ( https://github.com/Perberos/Mate-Desktop-Environment ).

From the github page:

"MATE Desktop Environment, a non-intuitive and unattractive desktop for users, using traditional computing desktop metaphor."

Excellent! Just what I want!

I wonder how active this will be and whether it will see any improvements or just maintenance

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#128
post #114
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this ease is somewhat offset by the extent to which Ubuntu are pushing it. When I updated to 11.04 I tried Unity for about 3 hours, got annoyed by certain things hurting my work style (the all-workspaces Alt-Tab mentioned above being one), and logged out and back in via "Classic Ubuntu". I felt no antipathy towards Ubuntu at this point, and I was impressed they were trying new things. They just weren't for me…

"That's hubris on the part of Canonical." I genuinely find this attitude confusing. I gave a presentation to a user group at a senior center last night on Ubuntu, during which one person made a similar argument. (The only real difference was that he used the word "arrogant" rather than "hubris".) I don't know your background so I can't speak to it, but this person I spoke with had contributed no code, artwork, transl…

Well I did also say that I was whining like an indulgent nerd about an OS I got given for free. Which pretty much sums up the characterisation you've given here, as well. ;)

I do see your point, I really do. My concern, and the part that I specifically labelled hubris - which in hindsight is a regrettable term - was neither the desire to make changes nor the desire to not maintain old configurations. Those things are understandable. When I tried Unity in 11.04 I was impressed that Canonical were working to advance the state of the art.

The part that irks me is when I try to imagine the assumptions behind the choices for the upgrade behaviour in 11.10. Users are proactively prompted to make that upgrade, and I perceive a disconnect between their expectations of a simple upgrade and the resulting user experience.

In the post above I mentioned some ways in which this could have been made much smoother (simply warning users that their entire desktop environment was about to change, for instance.)

Canonical doesn't have to answer a single thing to me for the operating system they worked hard to give me for free, but I still wonder why they chose that path.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#129
post #28

These sorts of complaints seem so absurdly dramatic. I don't understand the reasoning behind them. They somehow bring up an eerie image in my head of someone holding their spouse hostage in the basement for lightly mentioning that they wanted to take a photography class. "No, dear, you're not allowed to be anything besides what you were the day I met you. Change is not in the cards for you, unless I make those change…

I really appreciated this comment, not because of what it says about Unity, but because of the analogy you used. It's like this girl I dated for 2 years, saying "What, you want to take up yoga? Is it just because you want to start at other girls' asses?" Pretty glad I got out of that relationship.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here is a lack of communication. For example in LedgerSMB, we get occasional users asking for MySQL support. We send them a (lengthy) canned response detailing why MySQL support is not on our priority list and in fact why we wouldn't accept patches if they were written. We politely advise people to look for other accounting programs if this doesn't seem desirable to them. Pretty soon we got fewer and fewer.…

I wholeheartedly agree that communication is the issue. And everybody is doing an awful job of it right now (Users and Canonical). "Figuring out what the user wants" isn't necessarily the answer either. Not if your goals are as lofty as bringing Linux to the masses. Un/fortunately, the current user base is NOT necessarily the future. But if they want to bring "us" along, there are options. Drive the design-centric st…

It's not an issue just of figuring out what the user wants. It's figuring out what is not working for the user and why.

In general you can assume that what's not working for current users will not work for a large subset of future desired users.

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