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A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

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Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#41
I use Ubuntu as my exclusive desktop OS.

Ubuntu / Linux has far bigger problems than Unity. (Jump to point 5 for conclusion).

1. There are huge regressions.

With the upgrade to 11.10 my laptop's battery life has been cut from 5-6 hours to 2-2.5 hours. This is on an Asus UL machine that on Windows gets 10 hours.

This may be a kernel issue, but Canonical could add a lot of value by at least warning, or better, fixing/minimizing the problem. There are all kinds of boot parameter hacks, etc. to try to fix this, but it requires a lot of reboots and fiddling with internals. How about including a script to optimize these settings that is run after the upgrade?

"Linux on the desktop" is a dangerous misnomer, because on desktop computers power is not a concern. But nowadays power consumption is almost everything. Canonical already has its sights set on mobile devices, but hasn't even addressed power consumption for notebooks properly.

2. Poor communication of core functionality changes

New additions are presented and lauded in glossy detail, but removed features are not as clearly presented.

Nautilus (file manager) used to allow drag and drop copying/moving of files onto the left pane "bookmarks" folders. This was simply removed without warning, crippling quick drag and drop filing. Once again, this is "upstream", because of the Gnome/Nautilus teams' decisions, but it affects users in a noticeable way.

The initial update to Unity (11.04) removed all gnome applets, and made the time tracking software I used to use inaccessible. The upgrade to 11.10 made me lose my skype app/status indicator.

I don't care if my dock is on the left or bottom, or my open-close buttons are on the left or the right. Most of Unity's "coolness" is Compiz anyway - zoom, desktop switching, etc., so all that was available before Unity. For launching applications, gnome-do is still much faster, light-weight, and flexible (e.g. allowing creating/opening individual tomboy notes).

By communicating feature additions and subtractions better, people won't be so negatively surprised. Set proper expectations.

3. Key consumer software weaknesses

No good media creation suite. I was trying to make a photo slide show with a soundtrack a while ago, and I went through two days of installing/testing, setting up ppa's, compiling sources, etc. to get the latest versions, and nothing really works well. I mostly code, write, and use the web, so it's not mission-critical for me, but for a "consumer desktop OS", the absence of an official and well-functioning suite of applications akin to Apple's music and movie makers is a weakness.

Other apps like Evernote and a more up-to-date Skype would be nice as well.

4. What hardware does it run on flawlessly?

When you buy a computer with Windows or OS X, you know that everything will work. With Ubuntu/Linux, you don't. It's a huge stress factor before buying a new computer. Ubuntu has "certified hardware", but it's buried on some wiki page or other back page. This information should be front and center on the home page, so that I can buy something with confidence that it just works.

5. Conclusion

Ubuntu (whether Unity or Gnome) is far more usable than Windows (messy config menus, no multiple desktops, no full-screen desktop zoom, inconsistent shortcuts, etc.), and at least as good as OS X (which for example doesn't allow you to change the system's font size globally, and is less keyboard navigation friendly).

I'm considering abandoning Ubuntu again, because it can't compete on power consumption.

I am sympathetic to Canonical being annoyed by the bitchy entitlement complaints over superficial UI features (e.g., open/close buttons left or right). It's bike-shedding to the max.

That said, I think better up-front communication of changes can help set expectations. It forces the designers to reason why they are removing/changing/adding something. This doesn't have to lead to drawn out discussions, but some design decisions seem to be "shot from the hip" without realizing that they may affect/ruin thousands of people's work flow.

Lastly, there are huge issues like power consumption and predictable hardware compatibility that currently heavily weigh against Ubuntu/Linux.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#42
Am I the only one who loves Ubuntu and does not use Unity at all?

Basically, what I want out of a distro is a convenient platform to build the system I want. That's Window Maker with a lot of xterms, an Emacs session, a Firefox session, and possibly other applications as I need them.

Any distro can give me that much. The reason I pick one over the other is ease of administration. Ubuntu gives me this in the package management systems, the large repositories, hardware support, and, if all else fails, large, well-trafficked forums where questions actually get answered. (I'm leery of less-used distros because I know, I just know, that I'd stumble on some odd corner-case problem that nobody who's used that distro has seen and be up too late diagnosing and fixing it myself.)

So all these posts that imply Unity is the only way to use Ubuntu sound, to me, like people implying New York City is the only place to live in America. It's big and it's in all the movies, but there's a whole continent out there just beyond.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#43
There's some justification in deferring to user interface designers with respect to the vision for the interface. An authoritarian system can work, though you should be sensitive to how you present that authority. "wontfix" is socially dangerous to use.

But authority only works if you use that authority to do the right thing. Unity isn't doing that. I am in part frustrated that Unity got _worse_ with the latest Ubuntu release, and I'm frustrated that it has lots of bugs, and the interface is neither traditional nor discoverable. But even worse than these problems is the problem that Unity isn't pursuing a worthy goal. It's a rethinking of how you manage applications and files on the Linux desktop, but the Linux desktop has never been particularly functional or filled out and it falls behind further with time. The major trends we see is the desktop spiraling in on a single application, the browser, and files and media moving to the cloud. Unity is messing around with something that will never win the hearts and minds of new users, while it alienates what users there already are. I've never met someone who loves Unity! There's a couple people who accept it, and a much larger group that hates it. (Personally once I figured out to install gnome-shell I can like Ubuntu again, but Unity really did almost push me over the edge to get a Mac.)

It's not to say that a rethinking of the Linux UI is an entirely useless endevour, but Ubuntu and Canonical should not be pursuing a fantasy of a rich ecosystem of GUI apps. There are maybe a dozen relevant applications on Linux now, and that number will only get smaller. But the beauty of this is that if you just pursue an experience that encompasses those dozen applications, and you dive deep into those applications (which you can because they are all open source!) then something really neat could come out of that. I think people could get behind an idea like that, even if those same people simultaneously felt annoyed with particular changes that came from that. But it's hard to look past those problems when it feels like present usability is being compromised for a misguided fantasy.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#44
post #41

I use Ubuntu as my exclusive desktop OS. Ubuntu / Linux has far bigger problems than Unity. (Jump to point 5 for conclusion). 1. There are huge regressions. With the upgrade to 11.10 my laptop's battery life has been cut from 5-6 hours to 2-2.5 hours. This is on an Asus UL machine that on Windows gets 10 hours. This may be a kernel issue, but Canonical could add a lot of value by at least warning, or better, fixing/m…

#3 is one of my biggest gripes, in general. The Gimp is one of the worst products I've ever taken the time to try to learn. I'm not just tweaking photos, I'm trying to do some work as a professional, working on files given to me by other professionals. Forget about trying to open a PSD with more than a couple layers on it. Don't even bother.

And the interface... I don't mind spending a week or two learning an interface if it will allow me to get the job done, but The Gimp makes me want blood. Decent media software is the ONLY reason I keep a Virtual Box image of Windows 7 on my drive. Well, that and the occasional browser testing, but I find that's less of an issue in recent years.

As for hardware, I've run into Very few problems on a few DIY systems and laptops / netbooks. Graphics compatibility has always been an enormous issue. Especially multi-card for 3+ monitors. I assure you it's possible, as I've done it a couple times, but I tend to fall into a slight depression once the battle of getting it to work is over. Otherwise, I've been incredibly lucky. Install and go.

The battery issue is a major one. I've found that Lubuntu keeps up well on my netbook, and I rarely unplug my work notebook, so I don't run into it much, but you're spot on about the importance of getting that right, or at least making the correction simple.

Fine points, overall.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#45

I'm not a big fan of Unity, but I'm sympathetic to Shuttleworth in this matter. After following open source projects for some years, it seems they're all eventually accused of some dark corruption - usually after making some UI change. "You're betraying the ideals of the [project / community / founder]," the accusers say. "It used to be about giving users [freedom / choice / slightly less RAM usage]. Now it's just ab…

I disagree. Projects need these wake up calls and should listen to them much closer.

Firefox is a good example. I have used it since "Phoenix 0.1" came out. Already during "Firebird" times, users have started to complain that it is getting slower and bigger. Mozilla ignored it. It needed Google's Chrome browser to ring the bells at Mozilla and show them that the user complaints were valid after all.

Compare that with well managed projects like the Linux kernel. There its usually the BDFL who does the wake up calls, after having listened to user complaints and suggestions. Not saying that everything is perfect, but the kernel has been hugely successful for 25+ years and is still well focused.

Ubuntu OTOH has completely lost its original focus of providing an easy desktop Linux. They started pushing server versions and now suddenly smartphones. As if the desktop would disappear in the next years.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do, BTW Unity/Gnome3 copied this kludge as well and they're proud of it. This is an equivalent of launching a new computer line which throws away SSDs in favour of punch cards. See, "apps" made sense in the prehistoric times when single-threaded desktops with limited RAM were primarily used to do one thing at a time. But things changed. The concept of an "app" have not been making sense for a long time: you can run…

You say this, as every major platform migrates towards apps. Windows 8: (huge push on becoming) app centric. Mac OS X: (becoming )app centric. Android: app centric. iOS: app centric. What OS isn't? Linux. (eh, edit, this really isn't fair. Linux is as "app-centric" as I need it, though the "linux is so secure" assumption is uh, going to become fallable as its competitors approach an app-centric, isolated model. (also…

  > You say this, as every major platform migrates towards apps.
That's the way it goes with these damn computers. In circles. I recommend you unpack a bag of floppies, get yourself some Windows 3.1 and take a good look at Program Manager.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#47
post #36

just install XFCE and don't worry about it. as long as the apt repositories are stable, let them play with their GUI and you can go back worry about something more interesting.

http://www.xubuntu.org/

I never really saw the point of Xubuntu--I mean, 10 minutes in Ubuntu will give you the same thing, why have an whole separate distribution when the biggest change is the default desktop environment?

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#48

It's not reasonable to expect a design team to be able to function under the condition that whenever a user disagrees with the placement of a UI widget, they must either publicly justify their decision as being objectively correct or make the widget's position a user-configurable option. There is an enormous class of design problems that have several appealing solutions, one of which is better than the others, but no…

> Unity exists because every other Linux GUI has > fallen victim to this process That's very debatable. According to me, Gnome 2.3 is by far the best designed UX for a desktop operating system. Like most people, I generalize based on my own limited experience, and I have seen people grow up and learn how to use a computer in Gnome who were disgusted by Windows and OSX user interfaces. Like all animals, humans can be…

>at least Microsoft recognized (correctly) back then that a concept of an "app" makes no sense on a modern desktop, and windows is what users want to manage, not "apps"

>windows from different desktops in OSX are mistakenly combined in the same useless giant Alt+tab list

Completely agree. In particular, I used Gnome (2.14 through 2.18) for a few years, then OS X (Leopard through Snow Leopard) for a few years, and the way "tasks", applications, windows and workspaces are managed on Gnome strikes me as objectively better than the way they work in OS X -- with the possible exception that the OS X might be a little easier to learn for users that have very little patience for learning much at all about their computer.

But OS X is better at sparing the user from tedious admin hassles and has better aesthetics. Gnome 2 on the other hand allows the user to set the text size of almost all of the text on the system (the most notable exception being Firefox, which does not pay any attention to Gnome's settings), which OS X does not allow. (Some of the text on OS X, e.g., in the menu bar, window title bars and certain Apple applications like Calendar, cannot be changed with reasonable effort.)

Also, the "annoying glitches" on Gnome are worse. The annoying glitches on OS X consist mainly of the UI becoming unresponsive at unpredictable times (usually signified by the spinning beach ball cursor) whereas the annoying glitches on Gnome 2 consist of inattention to detail on the part of Gnome 2's designers and implementors, lack of consistency including "gotchas" like Ctrl-W having minor mostly-reversible effects in Emacs and in bash while having drastic irreversible effects in other Gnome apps (namely, closing the window). Also, Gnome would freeze, crash or otherwise need to be restarted an order of magnitude more than OS X does. Note though that Gnome and the graphical system on Linux might be much more reliable with a different video card: I only tried it with two old cards.

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#49
post #45

I'm not a big fan of Unity, but I'm sympathetic to Shuttleworth in this matter. After following open source projects for some years, it seems they're all eventually accused of some dark corruption - usually after making some UI change. "You're betraying the ideals of the [project / community / founder]," the accusers say. "It used to be about giving users [freedom / choice / slightly less RAM usage]. Now it's just ab…

I disagree. Projects need these wake up calls and should listen to them much closer. Firefox is a good example. I have used it since "Phoenix 0.1" came out. Already during "Firebird" times, users have started to complain that it is getting slower and bigger. Mozilla ignored it. It needed Google's Chrome browser to ring the bells at Mozilla and show them that the user complaints were valid after all. Compare that with…

Upvoted, but what's your math for 25+ years of Linux kernel development?

Re: A Disturbing Dialog About Ubuntu and Unity

#50
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Linux ever becomes popular on the desktop, it won't be because of Unity, that's for sure. It's a resource hog and it breaks too many established UI conventions. Unity forced me to start using the keyboard for most things. I'll give XFCE a try. I don't want to leave Ubuntu, because I like the packages and I don't have to read a manifesto sized manual to install it or learn another package system.

>Unity forced me to start using the keyboard for most things. That's not a good thing? I haven't used Unity yet, but might try it out just on that comment alone.

I presume he means it in a bad way, not in a good way like tiling WMs have.
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