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Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

deno.com

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Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#191

Post by sbarre »

weego wrote: post #179
tinco wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and if you've got a fairly complex website it's unlikely it could render more than a couple dozen rendered requests per second. If you're not rendering and instead getting them from a cache, that would be different of course.

The question makes no sense and your answer is wildly misleading and inaccurate. A server is not 'rendering' a website the same way a client does. A couple of dozen requests a second? In drupal in dev mode maybe but even then... I feel like we need to have a bit of a knowledge reset before spouting supposed info about csr v ssr

> A server is not 'rendering' a website the same way a client does.

While this is technically true, there is still "rendering" happening on the server when you JIT-compile JSX/TSX templates and transpile everything from your ES6 modules and includes to HTML/CSS/JS that a browser can parse.

In a sense you're splitting the load between client and server because you're right some stuff always has to run client side (like the actual layout engine work).

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#192

Post by dcveloper »

simonw wrote: post #19
leeoniya wrote: post #8

> But client-side rendering is expensive; the framework often will ship hundreds of kilobytes of client-side JavaScript to users on each request. These JS bundles often do little more than rendering static content that could just as well have been served as plain HTML. server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? for a properly-chunked app, hopefully m…

The cost of server-side rendering feels pretty trivial to me these days. Fly.io will sell you a 256MB of RAM container for $1.94/month, which is perfectly capable of server-side rendering dozens (maybe even hundreds if you write efficient code) of requests per second. I'm sure you can get even better deals if you shop around.

I know not the same use case, but nginx will serve near 100K requests per second of a static site on a moderately powerful server. Server side generated SPA empowered by K8 solution drops that to a dozen. Those number discrepancies are comical.

I must be too old to enjoy recent resume building architectures....

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#193

Post by lagrange77 »

leeoniya wrote: post #8

> But client-side rendering is expensive; the framework often will ship hundreds of kilobytes of client-side JavaScript to users on each request. These JS bundles often do little more than rendering static content that could just as well have been served as plain HTML. server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? for a properly-chunked app, hopefully m…

Also it's not like CSR is mostly used just to render out a flat document. It's used mainly for interactive stuff, often just banging internal client side state and not even talking to an API. And even when the client is talking to an API to update a small part of the document, this is more straight forward, than having a full client-server round trip, just for updating that small part.

Nowadays i prefer static site generation and if interactivity is needed, additional client hydration. The only scenario, which i can think of, which does not match this model are highly frequently updated dynamic content sites. Am i wrong?

Even for moderately frequently updated dynamic content sites, statically rendering say 10 times a day might suffice. When the hydration kicks in, you can always fetch the info, which changed between the 10x/day updates and still have a low time to interactive.

SSR with caching maybe comparable in terms of time to interactive, but does feel less elegant imo.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#194

Post by simonw »

zigzag312 wrote: post #47
simonw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of server-side rendering feels pretty trivial to me these days. Fly.io will sell you a 256MB of RAM container for $1.94/month, which is perfectly capable of server-side rendering dozens (maybe even hundreds if you write efficient code) of requests per second. I'm sure you can get even better deals if you shop around.

Is that kind of a container less capable than just about any client (except embedded of course)? Sorry if it's a stupid question. I'm not familiar with web SSR.

Very much depends on the code you are running. If you're running something like React server-side rendering it may not be enough resources - in which case you'll probably want an instance that costs $10-$50/month instead.

Most server-side frameworks I've worked with will perform just fine in 256MB of RAM though. These days I'd expect people to get the best results from Go or Rust, if they want to be able to run on as little RAM or CPU as possible.

I'll keep on sticking with Python!

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#195

Post by andrewmutz »

dcveloper wrote: post #192
simonw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of server-side rendering feels pretty trivial to me these days. Fly.io will sell you a 256MB of RAM container for $1.94/month, which is perfectly capable of server-side rendering dozens (maybe even hundreds if you write efficient code) of requests per second. I'm sure you can get even better deals if you shop around.

I know not the same use case, but nginx will serve near 100K requests per second of a static site on a moderately powerful server. Server side generated SPA empowered by K8 solution drops that to a dozen. Those number discrepancies are comical. I must be too old to enjoy recent resume building architectures....

What does that have to do with kubernetes? Nginx runs fast on kubernetes also.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#196

Post by dcveloper »

andrewmutz wrote: post #195
dcveloper wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know not the same use case, but nginx will serve near 100K requests per second of a static site on a moderately powerful server. Server side generated SPA empowered by K8 solution drops that to a dozen. Those number discrepancies are comical. I must be too old to enjoy recent resume building architectures....

What does that have to do with kubernetes? Nginx runs fast on kubernetes also.

I'm assuming Fly.io offering is powered by K8.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#197

Post by mbgerring »

In 2007 I was writing websites that were mostly rendered on a server, with JavaScript used selectively in some places for interactivity

I remember writing at the time that moving everything to the client was solving one problem (poor encapsulation of JavaScript-powered front-end components) with another (needlessly rendering everything on the client)

The industry moved toward CSR anyway, and I had to learn it to continue having a job. And now, here we are.

Why do we do this to ourselves as an industry?

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#198

Post by gosukiwi »

kbenson wrote: post #125
gosukiwi wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, a PHP file in an Apache server which includes some JS counts as full stack. To me, fullstack = frontend + backend. I don't think Django counts as full-stack, as you don't have a default front-end framework, like Rail's Stimulus.

Historically, I don't think you could call something that sits on top of Apache full stack if you didn't also control Apache, so maybe, depending on whether you're just dropping on some webhost? If you get to ignore threads/forks and number of workers as well as memory management of them because it's someone (or something) else's responsibility, then that's not full stack. The stack is OS (slightly, and can often be…

Yeah I agree about setting up Apache and managing it. OS + Webserver + (Server language + JS) + DB is the full stack

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#199

Post by bastardoperator »

ArrayBoundCheck wrote: post #154

I don't know what deno is and it appears that I'm the only one. Does this mean it's not for me? Would I want deno on my tiny 1 visit per hour website?

I keep hearing and reading about Deno too but I don't understand why I or my project would need or want it or consider switching to it. What does it give me, how is it better, why is it better. I'm confused on why I would pay for hosting? You're not alone.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#200

Post by jokethrowaway »

andrewmutz wrote: post #195
dcveloper wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know not the same use case, but nginx will serve near 100K requests per second of a static site on a moderately powerful server. Server side generated SPA empowered by K8 solution drops that to a dozen. Those number discrepancies are comical. I must be too old to enjoy recent resume building architectures....

What does that have to do with kubernetes? Nginx runs fast on kubernetes also.

fly is not based on k8s or docker https://fly.io/blog/docker-without-docker/

they just use docker api, hence why I don't think there is the resource waste typical of k8s

I haven't run benchmarks but speed wise containers shouldn't slow down app requests (except in a few cases with very specific kernels, which I unfortunately experienced in production - but I was told it was just bugs)

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