Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno • Hacker News Board

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#101

Post by DanHulton » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

peterangular wrote: post #33

likortera wrote: post #21

Am I the only one that think nowadays anything can be called "full stack"? For me "full stack" is something like Rails, Laravel, Django, etc. Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? I'm missing the translations system, the validations, the background jobs, the authentication system, authorization helpers, email sending, ORM or data access layer, testing framework, CSRF and relate…

Node/JS solutions typically don't come "batteries included." "Fullstack" means different things depending on the ecosystem and for Node devs it means "hey there's a solution for the front-end and back-end." Totally understand about Django, Laravel etc. but typically if I'm building in Node/JS I'm pulling all of that extra stuff in from npm piecing it together myself.

This is actually part of why I created Nodewood [1], because every new Node project required pulling all that together, and every new SaaS idea I had had the same basic requirements (user management, subscription management, teams support, etc). Then I figured, if I found this useful, surely others would too, so I packaged it up and have had a few happy customers since then, who have helped me refine it, which feeds back into making my projects better, too.

[1] - https://nodewood.com

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#102

Post by ravenstine » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:29 PM UTC

lucacasonato wrote: post #14

leeoniya wrote: post #8

> But client-side rendering is expensive; the framework often will ship hundreds of kilobytes of client-side JavaScript to users on each request. These JS bundles often do little more than rendering static content that could just as well have been served as plain HTML. server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? for a properly-chunked app, hopefully m…

> server-side rendering for each request in V8 might be more expensive to host than client side rendering in V8? Expensive not in money terms, but in user experience. Also: if you are doing e-commerce, 100ms added latency can cost you 7-8% in conversions. Spending 5% more on hosting to do SSR just makes economic sense.

It seems like an inference from correlation that someone extrapolated out in a linear fashion.

In isolation, I don't think that 100ms in delay before paint really causes enough impatience in people that you'd lose 7-8% as a direct result. Humans don't really make that kind of decision within such a minuscule window of time; to a degree, we expect our devices to have delays.

More likely, that loss of conversion is correlated because sites that have longer than 100ms latency have latency that's extreme enough to reach the "I give up" threshold. A site where its pages take 3 or more seconds to load would see a big difference, but that doesn't mean that a site with exactly 100ms latency will see any meaningful loss of conversions outside a margin of error.

People will also be much more patient with a high-value site. For instance, I'm willing to wait a few seconds for each page to load on the McMaster-Carr website because it's an otherwise good experience and a high-value store. But I'm far less willing to tolerate delays on some horseshit Shopify page plastered with ads and reselling crap from Alibaba. And if you've got a blog that's poorly formatted and overall signals low value content, I'll dip out the moment I detect the slightest monkey business slowing things down.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#103

Post by unsupp0rted » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

This looks like something I'd like to try but I don't like JSX (TSX). Is it possible to use Fresh with Vue in place of Preact, and write Vue components that split HTML templates from script and style tags?

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#104

Post by klohto » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

upupandup wrote: post #41

likortera wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't.

Quoted post unavailable.

You just like to pour a gasoline, don't you

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#105

Post by hestefisk » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

How I the experience with this framework in terms of latency? It’s good to reduce front end size but the wire ought to get hot if the browser has to constantly refresh from the server with simple view changes.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#106

Post by g105b » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

likortera wrote: post #21

Am I the only one that think nowadays anything can be called "full stack"? For me "full stack" is something like Rails, Laravel, Django, etc. Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? I'm missing the translations system, the validations, the background jobs, the authentication system, authorization helpers, email sending, ORM or data access layer, testing framework, CSRF and relate…

Please make the bash thing, I want to see it with a fancy marketing page to mock the JS ecosystem!

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#107

Post by hestefisk » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:32 PM UTC

ponyous wrote: post #95

I listened to a conference talk[0] where Dylan talks about fresh framework and he says quoting: "We have this little project at Deno ... it's not a web framework that we're really promoting or you know intending to utilise long term. More of kind of a demo of what this post unix web frameworks might look like" Is it worth investing in this now? It really put me off. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBcFJmQ6UVM at…

“Post Unix”?

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#108

Post by danenania » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

likortera wrote: post #21

Am I the only one that think nowadays anything can be called "full stack"? For me "full stack" is something like Rails, Laravel, Django, etc. Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? I'm missing the translations system, the validations, the background jobs, the authentication system, authorization helpers, email sending, ORM or data access layer, testing framework, CSRF and relate…

I'm just picking out one from the list, but on background jobs, a nice thing about async runtimes like node/deno is that you really don't need background jobs for most apps. You can just use web workers and async/await to do stuff in the background. You might want a more robust system down the line, but it's not needed in the beginning imo.

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#109

Post by danenania » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

didip wrote: post #51

likortera wrote: post #21

Am I the only one that think nowadays anything can be called "full stack"? For me "full stack" is something like Rails, Laravel, Django, etc. Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? I'm missing the translations system, the validations, the background jobs, the authentication system, authorization helpers, email sending, ORM or data access layer, testing framework, CSRF and relate…

I thought full stack means going all the way down to tuning the database, the kernel, building your own CI/CD, and performing your own deployment and scaling.

If it doesn't make you coffee, walk your dog, and iron your shirts, it's not full stack!

Re: Fresh is a new full stack web framework for Deno

#110

Post by gosukiwi » Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 4:38 PM UTC

likortera wrote: post #21

Am I the only one that think nowadays anything can be called "full stack"? For me "full stack" is something like Rails, Laravel, Django, etc. Or is it just being able to run code on the server enough to be "full stack"? I'm missing the translations system, the validations, the background jobs, the authentication system, authorization helpers, email sending, ORM or data access layer, testing framework, CSRF and relate…

To me, a PHP file in an Apache server which includes some JS counts as full stack. To me, fullstack = frontend + backend.

I don't think Django counts as full-stack, as you don't have a default front-end framework, like Rail's Stimulus.