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Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

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Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#141

Post by Tozen »

rayiner wrote: post #40
heretogetout wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a wedge issue where neither side will give any ground, which makes it exploitable. If you figure out a way to tie a wedge issue to the rest of your political platform you're virtually guaranteed support from one side or another. IMO one side has been much, much better at exploiting this fact and has has achieved great power despite representing less than a plurality of voters.

It’s a divisive issue because it represents fundamentally different world views. As an asian, the idea that the government can’t regulate abortion, which is prevalent among a large minority of Democrats these days, is remarkable. Even if abortion was a moral issue, and not about preserving human life, nothing precludes states from legislating morality. It’s illustrative to compare to Japan or Germany, which have “lib…

> nothing precludes states from legislating morality

You seem to be confused or at least "cloudy" about some things. The U.S. has the concept of separating religion from government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state).

Government does and should regulate behavior. But, morality based on religious beliefs becomes a problem, when the beliefs of particular religious groups are imposed on others who don't believe as they do. Effective government would find the correct balance, where the laws reflect what's best for the majority and protects individual rights and freedoms within reason.

> The state has the power to regulate, but simply tolerates abortion under certain conditions.

The issue the U.S. will now be running into, is that various states will have conflicting laws on abortion, adding to chaos and confusion.

The extremism involved in total or nonsensical abortion bans by various states, like even in cases of: rape, statutory rape, teenage/child pregnancy, incest, life of mother in danger, high percentage chance child will have major birth defects, various contraceptive measures (IUDs, abortion pills) etc... Then becomes a matter of showing a callous attitude of destroying and endangering the lives of various women and even the children they might be forced to bear.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#142

Post by finfinfin »

jonhohle wrote: post #43
JTbane wrote: post #26

I find it disgusting that any place that purports to be an "abortion clinic" has nothing to do with medicine, and is actually a thinly veiled evangelical NGO that pressures young women to have children.

They certainly do not purport to be an abortion clinic. They are a crisis pregnancy clinic. They give advice, support, and resources to mothers.

Being pregnant does not make you a mother.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#143

Post by jonhohle »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #107
jonhohle wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you are in a people group that the court decided are free to be killed at someone else’s discretion and you have no legal recourse or advocate. Would you accept that for minority groups, groups of any other association? If you are not the one killing or being killed does that mean it affects no one?

There already are that group - recipients of organ donations. If you or I decide to sign up on a match list, are tested for compatibility, and are selected, we have no legal obligation to proceed with the donation. You or I could be in the operating room side by side with the recipient and object moments before being anesthesized. Again, no legal obligation. Even if it should mean the recipient dies. It doesn't mean…

In that situation medical professionals are doing everything they can to keep that person alive. If there is another option besides the one donor found it will be used.

Fetuses aren’t granted the right to “pursue happiness”. Abortion doesn’t absolve a mother of obligations while giving the child a chance to part ways amicably. As the potential organ donor you cannot choose to actively terminate the life of the recipient, they are free to continue on until they can no longer.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#144

Post by nullfield »

mikece wrote: post #10

I suspect this story will be Cambridge Analytica 2.0: making use of the tools sold by big tech to achieve an ideological end. (Isn't everyone doing this?)

Bluntly, "we" warned "them". We said, "hey, maybe you don't want to encourage mass surveillance of your life in exchange for 'free' stuff; it could go poorly." It's now going poorly and I don't know that it's even possible to undo the damage now...

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#145

Post by ravel-bar-foo »

triceratops wrote: post #78
cloutchaser wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Ruth Bader Ginsberg argued roe v wade was a mistake because it placed abortion rights into constitutional law rather than letting democratic institutions decide an issue like this. The reason it’s not an issue in Europe is because opposing sides all get a say in this and arrive at a compromise, namely abortion allowed up to 12 weeks which is fairly standard in most European countries. But because row v wade basi…

> And why not have stricter laws in more Christian states? The 1st and 14th Amendments of the constitution, for starters.

Yet we see religiously-inspired laws everywhere. Any laws relating to alcohol sales is probably reflective of local religiosity, as is the state philosophy on criminal justice. These are not 1st amendment violations. Going deeper, religion created a culture which we have inherited: marriages, government holidays, even the official work week being seven days long. These do not violate the 1st Amendment.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#146

Post by WillPostForFood »

welshwelsh wrote: post #74
luxuryballs wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

It's not killing someone. A fetus isn't a person. > I can’t imagine anything LESS scummy than helping save the lives of those babies who are now likely very glad they were born So would it be ethical to rape someone and force them to give birth? Because the babies would be happy to be born and experiencing life? That's the same logic you're using. A fetus isn't a person. It's not sentient. It doesn't have hopes and d…

A fetus isn't a person. It's not sentient. It doesn't have hopes and dreams.

Defining a person as someone with hopes and dreams is nice poetically, but not great legally. Quite a few adults go through life without hope or dreams, but are still people. A one month old child isn't developed enough to have hopes and dreams, but is a person. Stepping away from the metaphor of hopes and dreams, you can start to observe REM movement in utero at 28 weeks. So in a literal sense, it is likely fetuses do dream.

This isn't an easy issue with a clear science driven answer. A clump of four cells isn't a person, but there is a very reasonable case for 39 week old fetus being as much of a person as a 1 day old infant born at 38 weeks.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#147

Post by somehnguy »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #88
somehnguy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like nonsense. Can you explain how it was ‘imposing a regime’, when nobody was forced to do anything? If you didn’t want an abortion you just…didn’t have one. Kinda sounds like religious people are the ones actually trying to impose a regime to me. Because I couldn’t possibly care less what anyones preferred god thinks, yet religious beliefs are being used to drive political changes that affect everyone.

Religious people in the US get very uncomfortable when other people violate their religious tenets. It's this feeling of discomfort that religious people feel the need to eliminate.

Middle schoolers already solved this a long time ago - “Sounds like a personal problem”.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#148

Post by InitialLastName »

rajup wrote: post #106
comrh wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Republicans won a majority of the Congressional popular vote in 2016 And then lost the popular vote in 2018 and 2020. Not sure why 2016 would be particularly relevant

Not that I support this ruling in any way or form, but the 2016 election led to the current slate of justices who came up with this ruling. It is probably good and by design that we don’t change justices with the popular vote.

The House of Representatives is fully inconsequential to the selection and confirmation of Supreme Court justices, and the only Republicans on the ballot nation-wide lost the popular vote by a substantial margin.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#149

Post by jonhohle »

somehnguy wrote: post #119
jonhohle wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you are in a people group that the court decided are free to be killed at someone else’s discretion and you have no legal recourse or advocate. Would you accept that for minority groups, groups of any other association? If you are not the one killing or being killed does that mean it affects no one?

It really sounds like you’re attempting to conflate minority groups with undeveloped fetuses. This is not a good argument in your favor.

In what way, exactly? The historical idea that some people groups have less rights than others? That certainly seems to be what the pro-choice position is. Can you prove the exact point of “viability”, because I can assure you that it is much earlier than was thought in 1973. Do you think it’s a good idea to argue that even though society has continually made egregious mistakes in assigning personhood to humans that we definitely have it right this time and this group of people is, in fact, not really people?

Edit to add: racial minority is just one way that in power groups have oppressed out of power groups, but that is not a unique delineation. Often it’s the most visibly obvious, but humans have done a great job of dehumanizing others based on just about any demographic feature you might want to choose. In American history there is ample example of racial discrimination, but there is also religious, gender, age, physical or mental ability, political affiliation, etc. I don’t really see this as any different from those. Choose a reason why some group isn’t “human” enough and that makes them fair game to do whatever you want. It’s your choice to pick and choose the features you think are necessary to treat a growing group of human cells as human or not. I just think it’s pretty regressive to exclude someone because they aren’t developed to your standard of worth.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#150

Post by mojzu »

snikeris wrote: post #116
welshwelsh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not killing someone. A fetus isn't a person. > I can’t imagine anything LESS scummy than helping save the lives of those babies who are now likely very glad they were born So would it be ethical to rape someone and force them to give birth? Because the babies would be happy to be born and experiencing life? That's the same logic you're using. A fetus isn't a person. It's not sentient. It doesn't have hopes and d…

> I know, and I'm sure you know, that's the real issue. Lots of people are uncomfortable with the concept of consequence-free sex. Hard disagree that the abortion issue is primarily about consequence-free sex. You stated the issue in the first line: > A fetus isn't a person. Pro-life people vehemently disagree about this, and it's not coming from a place of prudishness. They are outraged because they feel like babies…

Often the same groups opposing abortion also oppose the most effective policies to reduce abortions (proper sex ed, free birth control and family planning services, etc.). So while I agree there is an impasse on where the human life line is drawn, I would say it's fair to argue that prudishness/puritanical beliefs are a large factor in the opposition to legal abortion
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