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Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

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Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#131

Post by esyir »

prpl wrote: post #73
vardump wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pro-choice. That said, after 20 weeks one really needs to consider that the fetus can feel pain .

I am also pro-choice - I have thought the viability standard was always going to be a moving target thanks to medical and technological advances that could topple at some point too - even if you defined it as something like NNth percentile. It does seem to me that setting an arbitrary (but flexible) point of no return was going to be necessary (probably around 18-24 weeks)

The trimesters have absolutely 0 actual meaning here, as this is fundamentally putting an arbitrary line on a continuous process. Yet this is probably the only way you're getting anything, as they're at least a useful Schelling point that can get some compromise.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#132

Post by nullfield »

weberer wrote: post #69
xutopia wrote: post #48

Does anyone actually address how religion is a big factor at play here? It's skipped over every time but this is very much a religious war happening here. The Catholics in the Supreme Court are overturning human rights because it goes against the recent dogmas their faith prescribed them to believe.

That sounds like a conspiracy theory. Even atheists and pro-abortion people have been complaining that the ruling in Roe vs Wade was a huge stretch. At the end of the day, its not a constitutional issue. So either amend the constitution or leave the decision up to the states.

The thing that the "progressive left" doesn't want to admit is that Roe can be bad law AND that the right to be secure in/have control over your body needs to exist.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#133

Post by triceratops »

esyir wrote: post #115
triceratops wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why didn't they ever try for a federal abortion ban when they had control of Congress and the presidency? "Murder" isn't suddenly ok just because it happens in another state, right?

I said analogous, not identical. Clearly they see it as bad, but not nearly as bad as murder. If it was literally mass murder to them, I'd expect more bombs and riots, and less "campaign against it for 50 years to repeal it".

If it's "somewhat less than murder" all these states with anti-abortion laws would have carve outs when the mother's life is in danger. You'd definitely allow someone else to commit an evil act that's "less than murder" to save a person's life, wouldn't you?

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#134

Post by francisofascii »

mbg721 wrote: post #83
rovr138 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That introduces another variable that shouldn't matter. It also assumes that every catholic is anti-abortion. People and their beliefs are more complex than that.

For what it's worth, a major source of annoyance for traditionalist Catholics is that there are many people who identify themselves as Catholic but don't subscribe to the more controversial moral teachings of the Church. It's probably about 50/50, just like the rest of American society.

It is also a major annoyance for progressive Catholics, that traditionalists pick and choose which Church teachings they agree with. Immigration being a big example. Also working towards the "common good" is something conservative Catholics balk at. And they dismiss the Pope's encyclical on respect for the environment, and some even don't think the Pope is a good pope. Let's face it, both sides pick and choose. The Catechism is hard to live by fully.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#135

Post by snikeris »

ceejayoz wrote: post #58
parkingrift wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this completely ignores the moral issues of later term abortions. I am an atheist, and I am disturbed by the idea of a voluntary abortion after 20 weeks. Voluntary meaning no medical necessity. I think Republicans have latched onto this issue and Christianity in America has adopted it, but there is far more at play here than just Christian nationalism.

Late term abortions are almost all wanted babies where something has gone horribly wrong for the baby, the mother, or both. There are also vanishingly few of them.

These wouldn't be voluntary abortions, right? We were discussing voluntary abortions.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#136

Post by lotsofpulp »

gruez wrote: post #62
lotsofpulp wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What issue? What are the numbers on non medical necessity abortions post 20 weeks? Why 20 weeks? Are the voting populace or politicians knowledgeable enough about pregnancy to be able to legislate these things without exposing doctors and women to unnecessary legal risk? And again, back to the numbers, does the is even need legislating? Are women or doctors haphazardly running around killing perfectly viable fetuses…

> And again, back to the numbers, does the is even need legislating? Are women or doctors haphazardly running around killing perfectly viable fetuses for fun? You realize that there are limits to voluntary abortions basically everywhere? Not having a limit is largely an american phenomenon. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Abortion_Laws.svg

The vast majority of the US had and has limits on abortion.

What portion of the world has limits or not has no bearing on the reasoning for exposing doctors and patients to legal liabilities for no reason.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#137

Post by kraf »

Grustaf wrote: post #91
bbarn wrote: post #4

A former girlfriend of mine went to what she thought was a clinic, and was effectively scared out of having one, and had twins at 18. These scummy tactics work, or people wouldn't do them.

So, does she regret having the twins or do they happen to be the best thing that ever happened to her?

Not likely... There's a good chance she's alone with the kids and has to take on multiple jobs. Don't you think she will have sacrificed a lot of her own life for unwanted kids? Do you know somebody who's happy with a situation like this? I'm sure they exist but if you'll ask me for odds in a tough country like the USA I'll tell you they're bad.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#138

Post by kevinventullo »

d--b wrote: post #68
beardyw wrote: post #12

I find this whole thing so puzzling. In the UK, not so different from the USA, this is not really a thing at all. Even amongst Christians I have never heard it brought up. Is it a political thing, and if so how did it become so?

The other comments are wrong. The USA is very different from the UK because of puritans. American Christians are much more puritan than Brits (this is true for abortion, but also for tee-totaller movements, and other things) A lot of American Christians are anti abortion, for the simple yet totally valid reason that they truly believe that embryos are human lives, and that as such they shouldn't be "murdered". The qu…

Similarly, no one is really against the morning-after pill.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. A lot of people, including elsewhere in these comments, believe that “life begins at conception” and that therefore any action taken to stop the process post-fertilization is murder. That includes the morning-after pill.

It also includes IUD’s and IVF technology. Ironically, the latter actually enables some couples to have children.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#139

Post by ako »

luxuryballs wrote: post #30
bbarn wrote: post #4

A former girlfriend of mine went to what she thought was a clinic, and was effectively scared out of having one, and had twins at 18. These scummy tactics work, or people wouldn't do them.

Quoted post unavailable.

If you want those children to be born, you could also vote for better child/parent support. Ensure those women that are pregnant have confidence that they can carry the responsibility of raising these children for 18 years. Ensure good affordable healthcare is provided for those that can't afford it, ensure good affordable education is provided, ensure good affordable childcare is provided for.

Try helping instead of forbidding. And accept some children should not be born due to health, abuse, rape, etc.

Re: Anti-Abortion Centers Find Pregnant Teens Online, Then Save Their Data

#140

Post by heretogetout »

rayiner wrote: post #40
heretogetout wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a wedge issue where neither side will give any ground, which makes it exploitable. If you figure out a way to tie a wedge issue to the rest of your political platform you're virtually guaranteed support from one side or another. IMO one side has been much, much better at exploiting this fact and has has achieved great power despite representing less than a plurality of voters.

It’s a divisive issue because it represents fundamentally different world views. As an asian, the idea that the government can’t regulate abortion, which is prevalent among a large minority of Democrats these days, is remarkable. Even if abortion was a moral issue, and not about preserving human life, nothing precludes states from legislating morality. It’s illustrative to compare to Japan or Germany, which have “lib…

> Even if abortion was a moral issue, and not about preserving human life, nothing precludes states from legislating morality.

Not nothing -- we have a constitution that guarantees rights, many of which are rights to behave immorally (in the eyes of some). In fact that's the core of the Democrat's argument.

> And people perceive that conflict as involving more fundamental issues than what the marginal income tax rate should be.

Agreed, and that's pretty much my entire point.

> It’s an error to rely on the Presidential popular vote. Because it doesn’t count nobody is trying to win it.

I see this argument a lot but I don't find it convincing. There are plenty of senate and representative seats that are not competitive and yet we still count their votes when discussing the balance of power between the two parties, despite the fact that one side is less likely to try to win.

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