Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 593 posts

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#481

Post by depressedpanda »

dwaite wrote: post #465
smoldesu wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is going to notice that Chrome is eating their battery. I don't know what logical leap you're trying to make, but if people don't notice the impact of Chrome on their battery then what makes it worse than Safari?

I believe the parent's point was that they won't know it is _Chrome_ that is destroying their battery, just that their phone can't make it through half the day without a charge.

Android provides users with an easy way to check which apps and services are draining battery life.

Doesn't iOS have similar functionality?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#482

Post by irae »

gunapologist99 wrote: post #251
nicce wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Safari is the new IE, there is a difference between a monopoly while still being able to use a competing product (like chrome in other platfroms), and forcing Safari(WebKit) while hindering the web because of Apples interests.(2-3) Ehm. Chrome is the new IE. Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Microsoft is doing even more, by pushing so much Edge-only stuff. On iOS A…

> Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Apple Safari has, literally, 100% marketshare across the entire iPhone market. Its App Store also has 100% marketshare and enforces the Safari marketshare. I have an iPhone 13 Pro Max. I love the hardware, but I'd love to install other browsers; why can't I? I'd also love to run real PWA's or run WebRTC without major issues. Why sh…

For all your criticisms against Safari you still bought the most expensive phone on their lineup. So I guess they got so many other things right so you apparently still believe they ship the best phone out there.

I used to wish for Firefox on my iPhone too. But after a while I got skeptical this would benefit me or other users. Apple was the one to make the hard decision to kill Flash, and Firefox is known to have done their missteps too. So what if they are right in their decision and Safari does have a role in the reason you and so many others consider the iPhone the best phone to buy?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#483

Post by irae »

bogwog wrote: post #29

IIRC, every video game console that ships with webkit has been jailbroken due to vulnerabilities in webkit. Off the top of my head at least, I know the following have been exploited that way: * PS4 * PS Vita * 3DS/New 3DS * Wii U * Wii Also maybe PS3/PSP and likely also PS5 will get the webkit exploit treatment at some point.

There is not much surface area of attack outside of the browser and the incentive of pirated games is huge. Especially outside the US and EU where people barely have money for the consoles, so game piracy is the norm (Russia, Brazil, other developing countries).

Yes, webkit is somewhat to blame, but I bet, as we can see the number of exploits in the graphs from the original post, that any outdated Chromium version would end up with the same fate.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#484

Post by thayne »

elashri wrote: post #309
mtomweb wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user the harms are invisible to you. If you'd like to find out how it harms consumers, businesses, developers and the web, please read our regulatory submission "Bringing Competition to Walled Gardens": https://open-web-advocacy.org/files/OWA%20-%20Bringing%20Com...

Isn't the main argument is the user choice? if I as a user chose what the comment you are replying said, then what is the problem?

But users don't have a lot of choice. There are two options, and I don't like either of them.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#485

Post by stale2002 »

simondotau wrote: post #472
stale2002 wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The digital markets act only applies to certain companies, called "gatekeepers" that are large enough, have a certain very large amount of users, and have enough market power. Generally speaking, the purpose of anti-trust law is not to effect small players, who do not control any markets. Instead, the purpose of anti-trust law is to prevent multi-trillion dollar companies who control half of a duopoly, from doing ant…

But sure, instead of having phone manufacturers compete with open competition in an open marketplace, let's have governments decide how my phone works. That sounds like a great idea. (Note: that is sarcasm.) I wonder, is the EU promising to replace Apple's effective private regulatory environment around privacy control with something its equal or better? Given that "open markets" in software isn't a concept that resp…

The point being, that in a situation where there is a 2 company duopoly, with multi trillion dollar companies, then there is going to be laws that regulate these multi trillion dollar companies that have significant market power.

> compete with open competition

They can compete all they want. They simply can't use their market power to anti competitively prevent users from installing other app stores or browsers, of their own choice.

A user is free to not install other app stores or browsers, if they don't want.

> let's have governments decide how my phone works

It is actually the user who will now be free to decide which app stores or browsers run on their own phone. Feel free to not install them, if you don't like those options.

Anyways this conversation doesn't much matter because the laws are about to be passed. I look forward to people crying about being unable to prevent other people from doing what they want with their own phone in the future.

Because there is nothing you or apple can do now, to prevent people from installing other app stores or browsers, on their own phone, pretty soon.

The app store/browser war is over. Apple lost. And users will soon be able to actually do what they want with their own phone, and Apple will no longer be able to force users, against their will, from install other app stores or browsers.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#486

Post by irae »

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #428
tambourine_man wrote: post #273

A few random thoughts: • There's a place for closed platforms if open ones are a reasonable choice. A closed platform must not be the only choice available to the customer, but it should be allowed to exist given a healthy market. It's hard to argue that iOS is a monopoly, and if so, than a browser engine and JS interpreter with access to the open web is a very powerful thing that the owner of the platform may deem t…

Don't you believe that the physical owner of a device should be entitled to complete control of the code that is executed in it? This goes beyond business models.

So you will be satisfied if Apple provides you with the option to replace iOS by whatever OS you can put there?

Apple bundles the three levels (hardware, OS and Apps) and sells you the hardware. But Safari is tied to iOS and not to the hardware itself. So would you argue about an option to replace iOS instead of installing other browsers on iOS itself?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#487

Post by EMIRELADERO »

tambourine_man wrote: post #477
EMIRELADERO wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you believe that the physical owner of a device should be entitled to complete control of the code that is executed in it? This goes beyond business models.

It’s the last in my bullet point

That wouldn't achieve the same level of control over the device as Apple. You would still have a locked bootloader and an unaccesible Secure Enclave.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#488

Post by lttlrck »

If I could run Safari on Linux I'd switch from Chrome and make it my primary browser... if I could run Firefox on iOS, I might consider making that my primary - but I trust Apple to optimize battery/performance more than Mozilla or Google and I'd probably still stick with Safari.

I wish they'd open up just a little. Plus iMessages.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#489

Post by irae »

dwaite wrote: post #459

The assumption people seem to make is that third party browsers will get the sort of system-privileged access that they have on desktops: - Always-running daemons to perform internal bookkeeping tasks, provide network access, which are not reaped by lack of user focus or the needs of other applications - Ability to download, generate and run arbitrary native code (for running Javascript and WebAssembly) - Ability to…

Brilliantly said. This is a way better argument than Apple itself is presenting. But it does boil down to the same thing: Security.

If you allow Chrome to be installed as a regular app (even if Apple allows JIT), it will not work. Therefore for a viable Chrome Browser Apple would have to provide APIs they probably stripped from the OS itself and putting it back will for sure hinder security.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#490

Post by adamius »

veilrap wrote: post #419
adamius wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Apple get to choose how its competitor gets to compete? We give microsoft plenty of flak for anti-competitive behavior. It deserves it too. Its not hard to see why. But so does Apple. Now why can't I install my silly joke app? Oh that's right Apple won't let me install my joke app on my devices or friends for more than a week or so for reasons. Even though it can be easily tracked to me, its signed etc. Why…

No one is forced to use Apple products at all. Choosing an Apple product over non-apple products is a choice. There is extensive competition with Apple products. Choosing to buy an iPad, and being upset that they can't install linux on it, failed to do any product research before buying the product. Many people, myself included, choose to use Apple products in part BECAUSE of how those products work and function, tod…

This attitude is exactly why Apple should be compelled to allow different browsers.

You've shown me the door. Guess what? We took it. We've opened a new door right through the wall. Hello there!

Lightning cables from Apple are equally bad. Guess what? Competitor cables are more resilient in real world use. But yes, bring on usb.

Post reply on HN