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Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

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Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#441

Post by jmyeet »

MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

I've seen this claim a lot lately that Chrome is the new IE. I don't think it holds water.

First, IE was bundled onto virtually every computer at the time and Microsoft went out of their way to stop you from replacing it (eg system actions would use IE).

Second, Microsoft's anticompetitive IE behaviour was aimed at protecting its Window monopoly. Microsoft was worried that the Web would become a device-indepndent platform and that would obviate the need for Windows at all.

Third, is Chrome actually bundled to any large degree? There's enterprise bundling but how significant is it? There are Chromebooks but I feel like they're not a huge factor. I guess there's Android. Chrome's desktop share seems to be 68% [1]. That's impressive for an action people have to take to change the default.

Fourth, Google doesn't have the same motivations as Microsoft (in regards to protecting another platform). There are other much more real issues (eg favoring their other properties like Youtube) but crippling Chrome doesn't seem to be something that aligns with any of their interests. It seems way more likely that Youtube (etc) will work better in Chrome. While that's bad for other browsers, it doesn't have the same negative effects as what Microsoft tried.

Fifth, the core of Chrome (ie Webkit but also V8) is both open source and the core of other browsers (notably Safari and Edge) so it's less likely Web developers will end up in a situation where they effectively have to implement something twice, once for Chrome and once for the rest. That was pretty much the situation with IE.

Will it be a big deal in the future? Maybe. I don't really see this being a big problem anytime soon however.

[1]: https://backlinko.com/browser-market-share

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#442

Post by simondotau »

IX-103 wrote: post #285
nneonneo wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As parent stated, Google can simply neglect to make their apps work well in Safari. They’ve done so in the past; GMail on Firefox was nigh-unusable due to a raft of dumb bugs for a long time, and it still uses substantially more CPU and memory than literally any other tab I have open on my browser. Right now they have to make an effort to support WebKit (Safari); as soon as they can push Blink (Chrome) to users, that…

To be fair, it's not like Safari is free. Should site owners have to pay Apple to make sure that their website shows up well in Safari? That seems like it creates perverse incentives for Apple to keep Safari "broken".

In a discussion about encouraging browser diversity, are you seriously arguing that it’s an unreasonable burden on web developers to ensure their websites work on more than one browser engine?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#444

Post by simondotau »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #388
MBCook wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The guy with the one tank should compete fairly with the entire military force of a continent. If they’re in the right they will win.”

False analogy. Apple's market cap is ~$2,300,000,000,000 and it's not a war.

Clearly money isn’t relevant, because Microsoft failed and Mozilla (which had plenty of money) is circling the drain.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#445

Post by phs318u »

m-p-3 wrote: post #119
MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. Imposing an artificial limit on iOS isn't how the web will move forward. > Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. I don't see Apple making any effort to diversify the browser ecosystem by making their browser available on other operating systems, so their inaction on other fro…

They used to have a port of Safari for Windows. It was as popular as you'd expect. Having said that, WebKit - the engine underpinning Safari - is open source with BSD and LGPL 2.1 compatible licensing (https://webkit.org/project/). In addition, they make the engine available for use on Linux (https://webkit.org/downloads/). Gnome Epiphany is a browser based on WebKit (https://github.com/GNOME/epiphany). According to their manifesto, they support Simplicity, Standards Compliance and Software Freedom. Specifically, "Epiphany opposes the dominance of the web by proprietary software web browsers. Today's chief offender is Google Chrome, a browser that purports to be open source, yet actually includes several proprietary components." https://github.com/GNOME/epiphany

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#446

Post by simondotau »

stale2002 wrote: post #432
veilrap wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forced to use Apple products at all. Choosing an Apple product over non-apple products is a choice. There is extensive competition with Apple products. Choosing to buy an iPad, and being upset that they can't install linux on it, failed to do any product research before buying the product. Many people, myself included, choose to use Apple products in part BECAUSE of how those products work and function, tod…

> Apple's products don't fit your needs, the solution is trivial - don't buy Apple products. If you don't want to install alternative app stores or browsers, then you should simply choose to not install them. With the new digital markets act being passed in the EU, everyone will be able to install whatever app store or browser that they want. And you can't complain because you should listen to your own advice by not…

Does this digital markets act apply to game consoles and smart TV platforms? What about in-dash car systems?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#447

Post by summerlight »

MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

Apple could also tackle Chrome's dominance in a different direction. Just invest much more aggressively in Safari and web apps, 10~20x OpEx. Release Safari on Android and all other major platforms. Make most of it fully open source. Make all of its first party apps available on the web.

Obviously this means that they need to give up on their iron grip on app developers so they didn't do that even if that was the exact path Steve envisioned. But that's not a good excuse either.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#448

Post by simondotau »

veilrap wrote: post #426
izacus wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now this topic is full of people defending this exact entrenchment by dictat from Apple.

It's not the same, because Safari is already a minority in the market compared to the Chrome behemoth.

Seriously, I kind of wonder whether or not grass roots anti-Safari sentiment is dominated by web developers who resent having to test their sites in more than one web browser.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#449

Post by MBCook »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #388
MBCook wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The guy with the one tank should compete fairly with the entire military force of a continent. If they’re in the right they will win.”

False analogy. Apple's market cap is ~$2,300,000,000,000 and it's not a war.

I was going by market share.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#450

Post by philliphaydon »

labcomputer wrote: post #368
mtomweb wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user the harms are invisible to you. If you'd like to find out how it harms consumers, businesses, developers and the web, please read our regulatory submission "Bringing Competition to Walled Gardens": https://open-web-advocacy.org/files/OWA%20-%20Bringing%20Com...

> As a user the harms are invisible to you. Why would you post a document refuting your own point? I explicitly do. not. want. my web browser to have access to the bluetooth and NFC APIs. Nor the screen orientation lock and full screen APIs. I absolutely do not want website notifications. I don't know how to be more explicit. Those are things developers want. Those are not things users want. And no amount of gaslight…

> I absolutely do not want website notifications.

I don’t understand why everyone is like OMG apple is crippling iOS they don’t have push notifications on safari.

God the last feature I ever want on safari is push notifications. I want less notifications. Not more.

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