Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

twitter.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

431–440 of 593 posts

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#431

Post by threeseed »

echelon wrote: post #387
worik wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple/iOS is not the only mobile platform.

Apple and Google are 99% of the smartphone market. Together they set an unreasonable set of rules for mobile application development and distribution. They control search, advertising, and web technology, and there's little control individuals or other companies - even big ones - can exert against them. They both need to be stripped of their extraordinary powers so that user freedom and proper capitalistic competitio…

> Apple and Google are 99% of the smartphone market

Apple and Android are.

But Android is far more diverse than just Google's distribution.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#432

Post by stale2002 »

veilrap wrote: post #419
adamius wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Apple get to choose how its competitor gets to compete? We give microsoft plenty of flak for anti-competitive behavior. It deserves it too. Its not hard to see why. But so does Apple. Now why can't I install my silly joke app? Oh that's right Apple won't let me install my joke app on my devices or friends for more than a week or so for reasons. Even though it can be easily tracked to me, its signed etc. Why…

No one is forced to use Apple products at all. Choosing an Apple product over non-apple products is a choice. There is extensive competition with Apple products. Choosing to buy an iPad, and being upset that they can't install linux on it, failed to do any product research before buying the product. Many people, myself included, choose to use Apple products in part BECAUSE of how those products work and function, tod…

> Apple's products don't fit your needs, the solution is trivial - don't buy Apple products.

If you don't want to install alternative app stores or browsers, then you should simply choose to not install them.

With the new digital markets act being passed in the EU, everyone will be able to install whatever app store or browser that they want.

And you can't complain because you should listen to your own advice by not installing those other app stores or browsers.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#433

Post by dang »

sitkack wrote: post #237
jpgvm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the IE comparison is apt. IE shipped on (almost) every machine, had a ton of lock in features like ActiveX, etc. MS actively abused their monopoly position to make it so preventing default installation of Netscape by OEMs, incentivising ISVs to ensure web based enterprise products shipped with "Works best in Internet Explorer" etc. Netscape lost market share to IE not because it lost users but because w…

This is a pedantic and uncharitable take.

Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive (or name-calling) comments to HN. If you want to say specifically what you think is correct or incorrect, that would of course be great.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#434

Post by al_borland »

postalrat wrote: post #330
dmitriid wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari is my primary browser day in day out. The only pages that don't work in it are developed by people who believe that Chrome-only APIs are standard.

Like web push. Supported in both chrome and firefox for ages. But apple not interested because it can replace apps with web pages.

https://developer.apple.com/wwdc22/10098

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#435

Post by Retr0id »

smoldesu wrote: post #408
Retr0id wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of things to note here. Firstly, this is not a webkit-specific problem - It's just that webkit is the most commonly embedded browser engine. I have personally jailbroken my LG smart TV using a V8 n-day exploit (details not public, yet). For any modern browser engine that is left unpatched, it is only a matter of time before it can be exploited using publicly-available techniques - and console manufacturers k…

So... theoretically there is no security disadvantage to using Blink as your render engine instead of Webkit, as long as they're running the in the same sandbox? If that's really the case, then it's even more bizarre that Apple stands by their security statement.

The console threat model is far too different to the mobile device threat model for any direct comparison.

Console users will deliberately withhold security updates, so that they can later hack their devices. Console security updates protect the vendor from their users.

Mobile users (who care) will always be on the latest updates. Fresh browser exploits are exponentially more expensive, generally speaking.

Allowing users to use different browser engines doesn't necessarily widen the remote attack surface, it just changes it. But yes, ultimately I think Apple cares more about losing their walled garden, than they do about security.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#436

Post by albatross13 »

MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

My computer, my choice.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#437

Post by jacooper »

barkerja wrote: post #394
jacooper wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IEs biggest problem isn't market domination, its hindering the entire web, and pushing proprietary stuff. Safari is one of the worst browsers in terms of compatibility, like PWAs and notifications, they are unsupported on purpose to push developer to develop apps and give apple a cut. And when they do adopt new technologies, they are often super late like webp. Please die WebKit.

These features were actually recently added. See https://www.apple.com/ios/ios-16-preview/features/ Web push notifications Adds support for opt‑in notifications on iOS. Coming in 2023.

Hmm, preparing for market changes ?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#438

Post by hinkley »

Cannabat wrote: post #420
tambourine_man wrote: post #273

A few random thoughts: • There's a place for closed platforms if open ones are a reasonable choice. A closed platform must not be the only choice available to the customer, but it should be allowed to exist given a healthy market. It's hard to argue that iOS is a monopoly, and if so, than a browser engine and JS interpreter with access to the open web is a very powerful thing that the owner of the platform may deem t…

> Chrome's dominance of the Web is very scary. Not as scary as IE's, since it's open source, but still, it's such a huge beast that it's almost proprietary through complexity. I don't know if there's an easy solution out of this. I'd say that Chrome's dominance is much scarier than IE's. One reason has to do with user data. When IE was dominant, user data was not nearly as valuable. Today, user data is how Google mak…

Definitely a case where the thing that looks the scariest is probably not the thing that you should be most afraid of.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#439

Post by Raymonf »

GrabbinD33ze69 wrote: post #284
jpgvm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the IE comparison is apt. IE shipped on (almost) every machine, had a ton of lock in features like ActiveX, etc. MS actively abused their monopoly position to make it so preventing default installation of Netscape by OEMs, incentivising ISVs to ensure web based enterprise products shipped with "Works best in Internet Explorer" etc. Netscape lost market share to IE not because it lost users but because w…

Pretending that just cause chrome doesn't come installed with the android open src project, means it isn't a "default" for android is silly; yes, google play services isn't required for android, but an overwhelming majority of android users will see chrome as the default for the OS. You claim they are making a choice, but for the average user it doesn't seem like much of a choice. It's easier for most android apps ju…

What? The "majority of Android users" are Samsung users, where Samsung Internet is the default. Sure, it's Chromium-based, but not Chrome.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#440

Post by hinkley »

smoldesu wrote: post #393
hinkley wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple gets the battery performance they do by being very opinionated about who gets to chew on the CPU. Safari is equally opinionated, but third party browsers aren't. I don't like that Firefox on iOS is a shadow of what it is on other platforms, but at least academically I understand why it is the way it is.

If Safari is truly objectively better than other browsers, then it should have no problem competing with the likes of Chrome and Firefox. They can even keep pre-installing it too, as long as they give people the choice of other browsers then I'm happy.

I don't know what logical leap you're trying to make but I'm not following it. Safari makes the iPhone a better device. They don't sell Safari. They sell devices.

If you have a way to effectively and efficiently blame the bad behavior of your ecosystem on a third party, then there are whole industries waiting for you to sell them consulting services. If the king of Reality Distortion Fields couldn't figure it out, probably nobody here has either.

Nobody is going to notice that Chrome is eating their battery. They barely notice on desktop. The tools are even less grandma friendly on mobile.

Post reply on HN