Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#401

Post by capableweb » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:16 PM UTC

viktorcode wrote: post #383

gunapologist99 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Apple Safari has, literally, 100% marketshare across the entire iPhone market. Its App Store also has 100% marketshare and enforces the Safari marketshare. I have an iPhone 13 Pro Max. I love the hardware, but I'd love to install other browsers; why can't I? I'd also love to run real PWA's or run WebRTC without major issues. Why sh…

Your "marketshare" definition is bogus. I could claim that Firefox has 100% marketshare of PlayStation consoles. There's no such market as devices of a single manufacturer.

If you buy a computer from ASUS, you can download whatever browser you want. If you buy a cellphone from a Android-manufacturer, you can download whatever browser you want.

But if you buy an iPhone, you can only download browsers that are using Apples own browser.

Just because smartphones have traditionally been locked down, doesn't mean that it should be like that.

PCs were also pretty locked down the beginning. And Windows have tried a couple of times to move in that direction. But fortunately, we have a relatively open ecosystem when it comes to devices we use for "producing" things on. It's just missing that the devices we "consume" on works similarly.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#402

Post by depressedpanda » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:18 PM UTC

TheTon wrote: post #373

danShumway wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't upvote this enough. I support an Open web, I test my websites on Firefox and Chrome, I even occasionally do Edge testing, and I develop my websites often primarily in Firefox. But I'm not buying an iPhone or a laptop just to test websites, so I don't test in Safari. Every other browser has a way to emulate in Linux, I can even download free VMs from Microsoft to test IE11 in Windows (and Edge now runs in Linux)…

Do you test in Epiphany? That’s what the WebKit project recommends you do.

I test in Epiphany, and have resolved some Safari bugs that way.

Unfortunately that's not enough, for two reasons:

1. Safari is the only browser that is still tied to OS release versions, the WebKit version used by Epiphany is rarely the same, so results will likely differ

2. Epiphany has no mobile emulation mode. (E.g., I had to work around around an annoying input zoom bug in Safari/iOS by blindly applying the least stupid solution I found searching the net)

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#403

Post by vnkr » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

briffle wrote: post #242

fartcannon wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use Firefox on both desktop and mobile and sync it all. At least if your mobile is Android or Linux. And you can use ublock origin, too!

you can sync your bookmarks and tabs with the IOS version of firefox too, but no extensions.

Yes, but FF on iOS sucks precisely for the reason stated in the article.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#404

Post by GekkePrutser » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:23 PM UTC

depressedpanda wrote: post #375

GekkePrutser wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact Apple doesn't even bother supporting Firefox on some sites. Case in point https://business.apple.com

That's honestly the first site I can remember visiting where Firefox mobile doesn't work. It was blocked in Chrome too until I toggled desktop mode on. What are they doing, blocking based on the user agent string? How mediocre. They're clearly not doing feature detection.

Yes the weird thing is that on mobile it actually mentions Firefox as a supported browser, it just says you must have the latest version. Which I do but it still won't work.

On desktop it doesn't even list Firefox as an option at all.. It's pretty annoying for me because I use that portal a lot for work and I use FF on everything. Safari is not an option for me because I use Mac, FreeBSD, Windows, Linux, Android all mixed and I need the sync.

And yeah I think they're just blocking the agent. I haven't tried bypassing it. I kinda was afraid something would go wrong (I don't want to wipe 10.000 iPhones from the portal instead of 1 - lol)

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#405

Post by GekkePrutser » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

marricks wrote: post #310

GekkePrutser wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to start somewhere

That's not where they're starting, that's where they've fallen to... They've grown from 0.5% to 0.85% over three years[1]. I don't see how they're going to increase beyond that. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/272664/market-share-held...

I know, but if you don't believe it's the start of new growth there's no point even trying :)

Today is the first day of the rest of your life :)

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#406

Post by adfjalkfja » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:25 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

Love that I can't use chromecast on any other browser. And how they make youtube ads much much tougher to get away from when you do use it

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#407

Post by aceazzameen » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:25 PM UTC

skerit wrote: post #282

marricks wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is using Firefox on mobile so it’s good for you, but not web on the whole. Also while an independent entity having a larger presence is better than Apple at least Apple having a large market share makes Google need to consider what happens in safari before they do something particularly shady with web standards

I love Firefox for Android. It works great. It works even better than the desktop version :D

I'm the opposite. I hate it, but I use it because of ublock origin. I'm of the opinion that all mobile browsers are awful. Because of the lack either privacy, security, or UX. Can't have them all. If I could, I'd continue to use Firefox for Android 68. It had a much better UX including a tablet mode. Now the most recent version's UX is full of slow ui animations, lack of features, customization, etc. At least it has privacy and security.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#408

Post by smoldesu » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

Retr0id wrote: post #378

bogwog wrote: post #29

IIRC, every video game console that ships with webkit has been jailbroken due to vulnerabilities in webkit. Off the top of my head at least, I know the following have been exploited that way: * PS4 * PS Vita * 3DS/New 3DS * Wii U * Wii Also maybe PS3/PSP and likely also PS5 will get the webkit exploit treatment at some point.

A couple of things to note here. Firstly, this is not a webkit-specific problem - It's just that webkit is the most commonly embedded browser engine. I have personally jailbroken my LG smart TV using a V8 n-day exploit (details not public, yet). For any modern browser engine that is left unpatched, it is only a matter of time before it can be exploited using publicly-available techniques - and console manufacturers k…

So... theoretically there is no security disadvantage to using Blink as your render engine instead of Webkit, as long as they're running the in the same sandbox? If that's really the case, then it's even more bizarre that Apple stands by their security statement.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#409

Post by smoldesu » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

dmitriid wrote: post #326

lenkite wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing that regulation mentions browser engines and not the cardboard wrapping. You can use any browser you want as long it is ONLY Apple WebKit behind the scenes is a true dystopian fascist power-play.

> Good thing that regulation mentions browser engines and not the cardboard wrapping. Then why doesn't it target Chromium as the vastly dominant engine that has ~80% of global market? Or in the case of Chromium the cardboard wrapping like Edge etc. are different engines all of a sudden?

> Then why doesn't it target Chromium as the vastly dominant engine that has ~80% of global market?

Because WebKit sucks!

I don't intend to be vitriolic here, but this really is the status quo of rendering engines. You have Blink, which is capable of making complex webapps and fully-featured browser experiences, and then you have WebKit, which is almost exclusively capable of breaking them. I'm not mad that WebKit sucks though, we need sucky browser engines! Sucky browser engines like WebKit run great on terrible hardware like Smart TVs or WiFi Fridges or portable game consoles that wouldn't be running a browser engine otherwise. The problem is that Apple forces mobile users onto a browser that's behind the rest of the world's web technologies. They can make sucky browsers all day long, and they won't hear a peep out of me as long as I can replace it with a Chromium-based browser. WebKit is holding Safari, and by extension the rest of the internet, back.

That's the problem, and arguably an abuse of market position considering Apple directly profits off the failure of webapps.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#410

Post by max51 » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

the_gipsy wrote: post #363

Dig1t wrote: post #333

I'd argue that there are legitimately decent reasons that Apple is doing this, besides the selfish, monopoly-protecting, reasons that are also nicely aligned with it as well. Besides the security thing mentioned elsewhere, I think performance and battery life are a huge concern as well. A big reason that Apple products (usually) work so well is that the vertical integration of both hardware and software can lead to c…

> iPhones have excellent battery life and are pretty snappy for most of their life Not really. Maybe in the early days they had an edge with ObjC when hardware was primitive and java slow, but nowadays it's the same or buried behind synthetic slowdown animations. The battery life isn't especially good in my personal experience.

every single year single the early iphones, they have had equal or better battery life than competing androids with larger batteries. They consistently have 500 - 1000 mAh less than their close competitors.