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Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

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Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#321

Post by LMYahooTFY »

zuhsetaqi wrote: post #270
gunapologist99 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Apple Safari has, literally, 100% marketshare across the entire iPhone market. Its App Store also has 100% marketshare and enforces the Safari marketshare. I have an iPhone 13 Pro Max. I love the hardware, but I'd love to install other browsers; why can't I? I'd also love to run real PWA's or run WebRTC without major issues. Why sh…

> Apple Safari has, literally, 100% marketshare across the entire iPhone market. Its App Store also has 100% marketshare and enforces the Safari marketshare. And that’s the big difference between Safari dominance and IE at the time. Safari is only on iOS/iPadOS dominant not in the entire market like IE was

That's what countered the claim that Windows+IE were 'one product' as opposed to separate, right?

Outside of legal-land this seems like a BS argument, and even more so now. But legal-land is what matter first I suppose.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#322

Post by dmitriid »

danShumway wrote: post #164
MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

I completely sympathize with this worry, but are we certain that allowing multiple browsers on iOS would mean Chrome dominance? Part of the reason Chrome dominates on Android is because it's the default browser. How many people on iPhone are we expecting will change their default browser? As far as I know, most users don't change their messenger clients on iOS.

> are we certain that allowing multiple browsers on iOS would mean Chrome dominance?

Yes. From Google's apps already asking you to open links in Chrome to Google actively sabotaging competition https://twitter.com/johnath/status/1116871231792455686

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#323

Post by enos_feedler »

The first claim when you visit their home page:

"Apple's ban of third party browsers on iOS is deeply anti-competitive, starves the Safari/WebKit team of funding and has stalled innovation for the past 10 years and prevented Web Apps from taking off on mobile."

Anti-competitive? Perhaps? Yes? Starves the Safari team of funding? I don't know what this means. Stalled innovation for the past 10 years? Maybe. Prevented Web Apps from taking off on mobile? whoah. These are some pretty loose claims.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#324

Post by dmitriid »

jacooper wrote: post #220
nicce wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Safari is the new IE, there is a difference between a monopoly while still being able to use a competing product (like chrome in other platfroms), and forcing Safari(WebKit) while hindering the web because of Apples interests.(2-3) Ehm. Chrome is the new IE. Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Microsoft is doing even more, by pushing so much Edge-only stuff. On iOS A…

IEs biggest problem isn't market domination, its hindering the entire web, and pushing proprietary stuff. Safari is one of the worst browsers in terms of compatibility, like PWAs and notifications, they are unsupported on purpose to push developer to develop apps and give apple a cut. And when they do adopt new technologies, they are often super late like webp. Please die WebKit.

Safari supports everything in PWA (which is a non-existent thing, but a dozen standards in a trenchcoat) except notifications.

By "compatibility" you mean "support all of the Chrome's no n-standards it pushes at breaking speed"?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#325

Post by dcow »

nemothekid wrote: post #307
dcow wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Safari and Brave and Edge (so some use Blink).

So Safari and Chromium and Chromium. I'm not sure who the one here is deceiving themselves.

Chromium != Chrome. We're talking about some world where Google Chrome takes over everything not where Chromium derivatives compete with Google Chrome for browser market share based on features and merits. That latter outcome defeats the "chrome hegemony" which is what the person I initially responded to is complaining about.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#326

Post by dmitriid »

lenkite wrote: post #230
thewebcount wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Firefox, Edge and Chrome have all been banned on iOS. No they haven't! You can download each one here: [0], [1], [2]. They have been forbidden from using their own rendering engines. But they can still add all the chrome they want to the UI and do all their usual tracking like they do on the desktop. [0] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/firefox-focus-privacy-browser/... [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-edge…

Good thing that regulation mentions browser engines and not the cardboard wrapping. You can use any browser you want as long it is ONLY Apple WebKit behind the scenes is a true dystopian fascist power-play.

> Good thing that regulation mentions browser engines and not the cardboard wrapping.

Then why doesn't it target Chromium as the vastly dominant engine that has ~80% of global market?

Or in the case of Chromium the cardboard wrapping like Edge etc. are different engines all of a sudden?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#328

Post by nemothekid »

dcow wrote: post #325
nemothekid wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Safari and Chromium and Chromium. I'm not sure who the one here is deceiving themselves.

Chromium != Chrome. We're talking about some world where Google Chrome takes over everything not where Chromium derivatives compete with Google Chrome for browser market share based on features and merits. That latter outcome defeats the "chrome hegemony" which is what the person I initially responded to is complaining about.

Chromium dominance is effectively Google dominance when it comes to the open web. That is a world where Google no longer has to follow any sort of standards body because it is the standard. Another commenter, snowwrestler[1], put it best:

>With full control of the rendering engine on all platforms, Google can stop engaging with standards bodies. Web rendering standards will become simply what Google says they are, even if it is to their benefit. Imagine AMP but on steroids. When Safari stops rendering mobile sites correctly, there will be lots of helpful friends and family (and ads) telling folks to "just switch to Chrome, it's a better browser anyway."

>Google could also ship their own root certificate list and take control of Web PKI. Imagine Symantec but entirely at Google's option. Play ball or get security warnings. This would allow an end run around the democratization afforded by Let's Encrypt, for example. Controlling 99% of the client end of TLS confers just as much power as controlling the CA end.

All of these items are built into how Chromium renders the web. The other Chromium derivatives will be forced to swallow these changes because what are they going to do? Fork and maintain their own browser engine? Bisect patches from upstream forever? How many of these Chromium forks will have the resources to maintain their own fork of something as complex as Chromium?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31898439

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#329

Post by KerrAvon »

gunapologist99 wrote: post #251
nicce wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Safari is the new IE, there is a difference between a monopoly while still being able to use a competing product (like chrome in other platfroms), and forcing Safari(WebKit) while hindering the web because of Apples interests.(2-3) Ehm. Chrome is the new IE. Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Microsoft is doing even more, by pushing so much Edge-only stuff. On iOS A…

> Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Apple Safari has, literally, 100% marketshare across the entire iPhone market. Its App Store also has 100% marketshare and enforces the Safari marketshare. I have an iPhone 13 Pro Max. I love the hardware, but I'd love to install other browsers; why can't I? I'd also love to run real PWA's or run WebRTC without major issues. Why sh…

Do you understand that you are spouting conspiracy theory brain poison?

Feel free to debate the end result. If you presume motive, you can be proven wrong.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#330

Post by postalrat »

dmitriid wrote: post #301
gernb wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of webpages don't work in Safari because Safari doesn't ship the APIs that other browsers have been shipping for years.

Safari is my primary browser day in day out. The only pages that don't work in it are developed by people who believe that Chrome-only APIs are standard.

Like web push. Supported in both chrome and firefox for ages. But apple not interested because it can replace apps with web pages.
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