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Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

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Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#181

Post by nemothekid »

jsnell wrote: post #149
MBCook wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The answer is competition There is no competition . There is only Chrome. This is what I was talking about. There will only be one result to opening iOS and it scares me. FF/Opera are too small. Edge is small and really just Chrome anyway. If we had a healthy browser market I’d be fine. But we don’t. Apple is, for the wrong reason, the only thing keeping us from total Chrome dominance. I want one of these “just ope…

> This is what I was talking about. There will only be one result to opening iOS and it scares me. Why? Does Apple not have the resources to build a competitive browser? Do they not have the motivation? Do they not have the engineering skills? Do they not have a large and extremely desirable user-base who prefer to stay as much as possible in Apple's ecosystem? Given all the advantages Apple has, how could it possibl…

Replace Apple with Microsoft and you get your answer. Since when did having a trillion dollars guarantee success? Replace Apple with any company; do you think Google lacked the motivation and engineering skills to build a social network?

Ignoring much of the fact how Google would leverage it's existing properties to make sure you couldn't open a single web page without being nagged about installing Chrome; it would take a large amount of effort for anyone to compete to where Chrome is today and the result is that people would just Chrome.

And fine, I understand that as developers you don't want the burden of testing multiple platforms or being beholden to one platform that doesn't move as fast as Chrome. But to pretend this is about the "browser diversity" is where I have the problem. Just say you want Chrome and don't buy Google's framing that this about "open standards" when Google doesn't even hold Chrome to that standard.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#182

Post by MBCook »

JamesSwift wrote: post #131
MBCook wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome was forked from WebKit but had been it’s own engine for a very long time at this point. They share ancestry but are pretty different. Edge is literally built off a relatively recent version of Chromium. It’s not a separate engine.

Every iOS browser today runs on Apple Webkit. No exceptions. Thats an apple rule.

Sorry. I didn’t notice you were talking about iOS only.

I would hope mobile browser share numbers already take this into account, though I don’t know.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#183

Post by dcow »

CharlesW wrote: post #166
mtomweb wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not misleading. Firefox, Edge and Chrome have all been banned on iOS. Instead Apple has forced them to produce separate browsers around a locked WebView that they exclusively control. Mozilla, Microsoft and Google have all spoken out against the ban in regulatory submission, and browser engineers at each vendor consider it a ban. The REAL browsers have been banned.

> Firefox, Edge and Chrome have all been banned on iOS. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/firefox-private-safe-browser/i... https://apps.apple.com/us/app/microsoft-edge-web-browser/id1... https://apps.apple.com/us/app/google-chrome/id535886823 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/brave-private-web-browser/id10... https://apps.apple.com/us/app/duckduckgo-privacy-browser/id6... https://apps.apple.com/us/app/opera-browser-fast-pri…

Those aren't the actual browsers. They're a reskinned Safari because they have to be.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#184

Post by jakub_g »

tshaddox wrote: post #173
m-p-3 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. Imposing an artificial limit on iOS isn't how the web will move forward. > Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. I don't see Apple making any effort to diversify the browser ecosystem by making their browser available on other operating systems, so their inaction on other fro…

> On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. At the same time, most desktop computer users are able to use Firefox and we can see how often they choose to do so.

According to stats from GitHub, 12% of their traffic is from Firefox. 3x more than Safari.

https://github.blog/2022-06-10-how-we-think-about-browsers/

Of course this is just part of the story. In every country it's different. In some EU countries Firefox is up to 20%. In UK it's almost non-existent. Local markets shape the browser support. If a few major websites are too lazy to support a browser properly, users will leave, and then others can say "there are no users, so we can stop supporting!".

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#185

Post by mtomweb »

CharlesW wrote: post #152
m-p-3 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. Imposing an artificial limit on iOS isn't how the web will move forward. > Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. I don't see Apple making any effort to diversify the browser ecosystem by making their browser available on other operating systems, so their inaction on other fro…

> On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. It denies you from using Gecko. You can use an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS.

The Mozillians don't think actual Firefox is available on iOS and neither should you.

You can read Mozilla's submission about the #AppleBrowserBan here: https://www.regulations.gov/comment/NTIA-2022-0001-0131

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#186

Post by judge2020 »

jedberg wrote: post #156
CharlesW wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. It denies you from using Gecko. You can use an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS.

A semantic nitpick that is totally irrelevant. Most people on this website usually mean Gecko when they say they want to use Firefox.

Really? You mean people don't use Firefox because:

- it protects what's important

- you can "Personalize your experience with new colorways."

- has Facebook Container

- syncs across your devices

Mozilla knows the actual engine isn't the deciding factor when trying to get people to change browsers.

https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#187

Post by Delphiki »

corrral wrote: post #105
UIUC_06 wrote: post #75

I'm actually writing this on Brave on MacOS. I also have Chrome. I practically never use Safari. (I don't have an iPhone, though.) So they don't have it on the AppStore? Who cares?

On iOS, the only browser engine allowed is Safari's. There are other browsers, but they have to use the same engine. I'm pretty sure that approximately zero normal users are bothered by this, but a lot of webdevs really, really want to be able to use things like web push messaging on iOS.

Web push notifications will be available (in some capacity) in iOS 16 this fall. But that's beside the point.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#188

Post by kevinmgranger »

CharlesW wrote: post #152
m-p-3 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. Imposing an artificial limit on iOS isn't how the web will move forward. > Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. I don't see Apple making any effort to diversify the browser ecosystem by making their browser available on other operating systems, so their inaction on other fro…

> On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. It denies you from using Gecko. You can use an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS.

"actual" Firefox absolutely means using their engine.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#189

Post by nemothekid »

dcow wrote: post #170
MBCook wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competition on iOS without real competition on the desktop already existing could quickly mean unbreakable Chrome hegemony. That’s why I originally commented. If you focus on just one of those I believe there will be terrible unintentional consequences.

This whole chrome fetish thing you've got is actually the issue. Everyone thinks "there is only Chrome" so in a sense we all deceive ourselves. I don't know a single person anymore who uses Chrome. Maybe you do but that's not really the point. If you don't want a Chrome hegemony then don't fool yourself into thinking there is one and don't proliferate that ideology. Tell your product people that NO, you're not going…

>I don't know a single person anymore who uses Chrome.

I find this very hard to believe. Everyone you know uses Firefox?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#190

Post by freediver »

cromwellian wrote: post #174
freediver wrote: post #140

@dang The title is misleading. Apple is not banning other browsers (there are over 100+ browsers on iOS). Apple is restricting iOS browsers to using the WebKit rendering engine which is an entirely different matter. Edit: Apple is also not claiming what the title suggests (source would be needed), the author of the tweet seems to just interpret it this way.

This is misleading because the Rendering Engine is the browser. Everything else is a skin. The rendering engine determines pretty much everything related to we standards. Third party iOS browsers are little more than third party themes/skins.

I understand how it may appear to look like that to someone who never tried to build a browser.

See this comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31897294

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