Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#151

Post by CharlesW » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

theturtletalks wrote: post #125

AlexandrB wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the way it has to be. What? Why? I assure you that's not how Google thought of it when they were facing off against Firefox and IE. They were putting Chrome installers in every SourceForge download and telling you to install Chrome when you searched Google. Why should their competitors lie down and let Chrome roll over them?

For one, people still had the decision to download Chrome even if it was advertised heavily. Apple forces Safari on all their iOS users since all the browsers have to use WebKit.

> Apple forces Safari on all their iOS users…

Lots of people use non-Safari browsers on iOS (Chrome, Firefox, Edge, Opera, Brave, DuckDuckGo), and iOS lets you choose your default browser. I know you know Safari WebKit, but 99.99% of users don't know or care about the plumbing.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#152

Post by CharlesW » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:45 PM UTC

m-p-3 wrote: post #119

MBCook wrote: post #14

I’m going to ignore the security angle and post my big fear. Chrome has dominance similar to IE at the height of its popularity. Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. (Note: not why they’re doing it, just a side effect) People keep arguing Apple is being anti-competitive. But no one seems to recon with the possible consequences of what they’re asking for. And I fea…

On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. Imposing an artificial limit on iOS isn't how the web will move forward. > Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. I don't see Apple making any effort to diversify the browser ecosystem by making their browser available on other operating systems, so their inaction on other fro…

> On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS.

It denies you from using Gecko. You can use an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#153

Post by AlexandrB » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:45 PM UTC

silvestrov wrote: post #139

jpgvm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the IE comparison is apt. IE shipped on (almost) every machine, had a ton of lock in features like ActiveX, etc. MS actively abused their monopoly position to make it so preventing default installation of Netscape by OEMs, incentivising ISVs to ensure web based enterprise products shipped with "Works best in Internet Explorer" etc. Netscape lost market share to IE not because it lost users but because w…

Also: It was bad for Microsoft if browsers became too good as the Windows OS then could too easily be replaced by cheaper platforms. So Microsoft wanted to keep browsers back as much as possible. It's good for Google when Chrome is good. So Google has a great incitament to improve Chrome. The only drawbacks would be proprietary functionality others can't use.

The other drawback is that Google is an advertising company that has an incentive to track users across the web. In a Chrome monopoly how easy would it be to avoid being tracked? Especially by Google. Recently, Chrome was the only major browser to adopt Google's FLoC[1]. If Chrome was even more dominant would it have mattered if Edge/Safari/Firefox didn't adopt this tracking technology?

[1] https://www.howtogeek.com/724441/what-is-googles-floc-and-ho...

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#154

Post by TheDong » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:46 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #6

So they are saying that they can't make a secure sandbox? Why is running other applications somehow secure?

If an attacker has a way to escape the browser javascript sandbox on webkit and also has an iOS app sandbox exploit, that right now will pwn any iOS user who clicks a malicious link.

If I can run firefox instead, and that javascript sandbox exploit was already patched in firefox, the iOS app sandbox escape won't do them any good. They can't get through the earlier layer to exploit it.

The claims being made here is that the first layer, the browser exploit, is easier with safari/webkit, and the second layer, the iOS sandbox escape, is identical. Even if it only changes one layer of security, that is still a meaningful change and is more secure.

There are additional factors too.

Right now, if you have a webkit vuln, but no iOS sandbox escape, you can still steal cookies from other sites, browser history, exfiltrate passwords, etc. The browser engine is a valuable target on its own, even ignoring the rest of the system.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#155

Post by mtomweb » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:46 PM UTC

freediver wrote: post #140

@dang The title is misleading. Apple is not banning other browsers (there are over 100+ browsers on iOS). Apple is restricting iOS browsers to using the WebKit rendering engine which is an entirely different matter. Edit: Apple is also not claiming what the title suggests (source would be needed), the author of the tweet seems to just interpret it this way.

It's not misleading. Firefox, Edge and Chrome have all been banned on iOS.

Instead Apple has forced them to produce separate browsers around a locked WebView that they exclusively control. Mozilla, Microsoft and Google have all spoken out against the ban in regulatory submission, and browser engineers at each vendor consider it a ban.

The REAL browsers have been banned.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#156

Post by jedberg » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:46 PM UTC

CharlesW wrote: post #152

m-p-3 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. Imposing an artificial limit on iOS isn't how the web will move forward. > Whatever you think of their decisions, Apple is the only thing stopping a 90%+ Chrome web. I don't see Apple making any effort to diversify the browser ecosystem by making their browser available on other operating systems, so their inaction on other fro…

> On the other hand, this denies me from using an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS. It denies you from using Gecko. You can use an actual Mozilla Firefox web browser on iOS.

A semantic nitpick that is totally irrelevant. Most people on this website usually mean Gecko when they say they want to use Firefox.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#157

Post by TheDong » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

corrral wrote: post #105

UIUC_06 wrote: post #75

I'm actually writing this on Brave on MacOS. I also have Chrome. I practically never use Safari. (I don't have an iPhone, though.) So they don't have it on the AppStore? Who cares?

On iOS, the only browser engine allowed is Safari's. There are other browsers, but they have to use the same engine. I'm pretty sure that approximately zero normal users are bothered by this, but a lot of webdevs really, really want to be able to use things like web push messaging on iOS.

> I'm pretty sure that approximately zero normal users are bothered by this

I think many normal users are bothered by this and don't realize it.

The restrictions on browser engine are the main reason that Firefox can't ship addons for iOS (like it does for firefox on android). I bet a ton of iOS users would appreciate being able to install firefox addons, like uBlock origin, on their iOS firefox.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#158

Post by CharlesW » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:48 PM UTC

niko001 wrote: post #150

nicce wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Safari is the new IE, there is a difference between a monopoly while still being able to use a competing product (like chrome in other platfroms), and forcing Safari(WebKit) while hindering the web because of Apples interests.(2-3) Ehm. Chrome is the new IE. Apple is using anti-competitive methods but its far far away from market domination. Microsoft is doing even more, by pushing so much Edge-only stuff. On iOS A…

It might not matter to users in the sense that they ask themselves what rendering engine Chrome on iOS is using under the hood, but the effects do matter. I get a lot of support requests saying "Your [web] app is broken on my iPhone!", "Right, Safari doesn't support feature XYZ", "I'm not using Safari, I'm using Chrome", "..."

How does the developer story get better if you're required to support many web rendering engines on iOS instead of one? Or is the endgame that you'd just point people to Chrome/Blink and extend the web monoculture to Apple devices too?

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#159

Post by aquanext » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:49 PM UTC

Fortunately, there's user choice in phones. So get an Android device if you want to run Google's stuff? I mean, security is one angle, but let's talk power and memory usage. You're asking for Apple to allow Chrome's engine (because their app is on the App Store today right now) -- the giant well-known resource hog routinely toasting MacBook Pro users' thighs -- onto their fanless hyper-performant devices. Setting aside privacy and monopolistic concerns, I just don't see how that's a great idea.

Re: Apple's claim is that it bans other browsers for security

#160

Post by jedberg » Mon, Jun 27, 2022, 4:50 PM UTC

freediver wrote: post #140

@dang The title is misleading. Apple is not banning other browsers (there are over 100+ browsers on iOS). Apple is restricting iOS browsers to using the WebKit rendering engine which is an entirely different matter. Edit: Apple is also not claiming what the title suggests (source would be needed), the author of the tweet seems to just interpret it this way.

A semantic nitpick that is totally irrelevant. Most people on this website usually mean Gecko when they say they want to use Firefox, Blink when they say Chrome, etc.

You and I both know the headline means allowing other rendering engines.