College has been oversold • Hacker News Board

Re: College has been oversold

#191

Post by sliverstorm » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:32 PM UTC

joshklein wrote: post #142

cageface wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A degree in Philosophy or English, let's say, is a luxury that would be incomprehensible to many in the developing world. If I were to suggest to the Vietnamese I know here, for example, that they spend their tuition on something that doesn't directly correlate with a roof over their head or food on their table they'd worry about my mental health. Thanks to globalization that luxury is going to start to seem just as…

A lot of things we do here would make them question our mental health. Say, pretending like you really need more than that $40,000 job the English major can get that lets him live in a small but safe apartment in a fine neighborhood (that has plumbing, electricity, and sanitation) in a non-center-of-the-world American city, and shop for all the groceries he needs in the market 10 minutes away. Anyway, for a community…

But does the lack of an English major prevent you from securing a $40,000 job?

Re: College has been oversold

#192

Post by forensic » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:33 PM UTC

joshklein wrote: post #27

I have a similar conclusion but slightly different reasoning. And I want to defend liberal arts majors a bit, since I'm one of them. To me, the problem is that most people don't view college as an investment in their future, but rather as a temporary place to delay choices. Certainly, it is positioned as an investment by educators, and it is probably true for science & engineering degrees, but do students approach it…

I found my computer science education to be pretty lightweight and not tremendously useful or beneficial to me.

I found my english, psychology, history and philosophy educations, which I took dead seriously as you did, to be tremendously useful. They didn't force me to learn, and the classes were relatively easy if you just wanted to pass, and I saw plenty of classmates learn nothing but still pass or get high marks.

But for those who take it seriously, it is nothing short of enlightening. You can skim through it and get your A+ and go on to the next stage of your rat-race, but you're shortchanging yourself.

I pity those who don't understand what the great scientists and artists of the past called "enlightenment". It's something you can only get from a serious study of the liberal arts. It has nothing to do with making money, although it can certainly help with making money, even if it doesn't lead to some well-defined corporate career.

Engineers scoff at me when I talk about phenomenology or existentialism or the value in mythology, fiction, critical analysis, personality theory. I pity them. They don't know what they're missing.

Re: College has been oversold

#193

Post by estevez » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:34 PM UTC

esrauch wrote: post #171

cq wrote: post #60

That graph in the OP is dishonest. Here's the actual data that wasn't cherry picked (and taken directly from the same data source as the OP, using the excel file provided by the US government and charted in excel): http://i.imgur.com/YTFMo.png Here are the tables from the report, if you'd like to do your own analysis: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/2010menu_tables.asp

I don't understand, the graph that you linked too appears to demonstrate exactly the same effect that the OP graph is. Could you explain what was cherry picked?

Another point (perhaps not what the parent meant): the author pulls out computer science from the mid-80s peak.

See here: http://imgur.com/XUCku

Re: College has been oversold

#194

Post by sliverstorm » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:35 PM UTC

pflats wrote: post #71

_delirium wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's all on the educators' side. It's also been pushed strongly by parents, because for the last few decades having a degree versus not having a degree has been the single best predictor of getting a white-collar job. Doesn't even matter what the degree is in; a 4-year degree qualifies you to get past the "need degree" HR screen in all sorts of generic office jobs, and the pay gap between "generic libera…

Completely agreed. I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg, though: the push for more college-educated students, or the degree screen for jobs.

They are mutually re-enforcing. I suspect the degree screen for jobs came second, though.

Re: College has been oversold

#195

Post by forensic » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:36 PM UTC

redthrowaway wrote: post #145

joshklein wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of things we do here would make them question our mental health. Say, pretending like you really need more than that $40,000 job the English major can get that lets him live in a small but safe apartment in a fine neighborhood (that has plumbing, electricity, and sanitation) in a non-center-of-the-world American city, and shop for all the groceries he needs in the market 10 minutes away. Anyway, for a community…

Except that the case of Jobs is a perfect illustration of the grandparent's point: he dropped out of Reed College because he couldn't justify the expense to himself. He audited the calligraphy class, and slept on floors and couches. So he didn't go $100k into debt to take those classes with the expectation it would land him a good job; he sat in on them because he was interested in them but recognized they were a bad…

No supporter of the liberal arts claims that it's the degree that counts. It's the education that counts. Jobs got his liberal education even if he didn't get his degree -- and it shows.

Re: College has been oversold

#196

Post by daenz » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:39 PM UTC

The article made the point that 50% more students are enrolling in college, but amount of students in the STEM fields remained constant. Does anyone know why this is?

Re: College has been oversold

#197

Post by estevez » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:44 PM UTC

pflats wrote: post #6

This is a consequence of the concerted effort by educators to increase post-secondary enrollment in the United States. Presumably, the students likely to enroll in a math or science program were (by and large) already heading to college 25 years ago. As a metric for high schools, students enrolling in and graduating from a 4-year college is one of the most important numbers in the all-important school ranking. Studen…

Presumably, the students likely to enroll in a math or science program were (by and large) already heading to college 25 years ago.

This presumption is not supported by the data. Since 1970 the proportion of STEM degrees out of all degrees awarded has averaged 24% with a SD of `2.

Re: College has been oversold

#198

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:53 PM UTC

joshklein wrote: post #27

I have a similar conclusion but slightly different reasoning. And I want to defend liberal arts majors a bit, since I'm one of them. To me, the problem is that most people don't view college as an investment in their future, but rather as a temporary place to delay choices. Certainly, it is positioned as an investment by educators, and it is probably true for science & engineering degrees, but do students approach it…

[deleted]

Re: College has been oversold

#199

Post by kabdib » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:54 PM UTC

jholman wrote: post #175

re_todd wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why more people don't recommend community/junior colleges. You can cut the price of education almost in half if you start out 2 years at a JC.

I agree and disagree. I spent a few years at a college before going to a university, and the (average) quality of teaching was actually higher at the college, for half the tuition. So insofar as post-secondary is about the stuff you learn in class, college is awesome. And I used to recommend it highly to any high-school-student who would listen. However, there are some other benefits that are in short supply at colle…

What I got out of JC:

- A good english teacher (Strunk and White). My writing improved tremendously.

- Calculus

- A taste for history

What I didn't get:

- Anything relevant to CS

- Any good math beyond calculus (they offered "statistics for business majors", which was really lame)

On the whole it was a good way for a self-learner to get some cheap learning out of the way, and also get some job experience (as a coop in the IT shop of a local government organization).

Re: College has been oversold

#200

Post by gavinlynch » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 9:55 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #189

gavinlynch wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. Reading books where others smarter than ourselves ask these questions can also unfold new paradigms and impart the same intellectual growth.

I'm sure that having a conversation with about a dozen other students and a teacher was more effective than just reading the book would have been. Especially since the teacher was able to fill in some cultural and translation gaps in the book we were reading, and could make connections to other philosophies that we didn't even know about but Heidegger took for granted.

I could definitely see that. I guess my point is more that I don't think the experience you outlined is unique to college. And I'm sure there is a whole other conversation (I see it everywhere in these comments) about the value for the price.