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They Think It's Murder

richarddawkins.com

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Re: They Think It's Murder

#151

Post by sofixa »

kcplate wrote: post #150
sofixa wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already happened in Poland in basically the same situation (a miscarrying woman was left to die from sepsis because the doctors didn't want to risk being accused of aborting). Many doctors would prefer to not go to jail, even if it means risking a woman's life.

Poland is not the US.

Do you think American doctors would be more willing to go to prison over an abortion? I don't see much difference in the two countries in that regard, if anything American doctors also have to think about their student loans and are probably going to be more religious (Poland has a big Catholic problem but in the US having a religion is basically the norm)

Re: They Think It's Murder

#152

Post by manicdee »

maratc wrote: post #7

Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too. Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus. The issue is a complicated one. We seem…

We as a society see some value in the success of a wanted pregnancy.

Once you consider the intentions of the pregnant person, it’s easier to resolve these “competing rights”.

When you only consider a woman to be an incubator for your children (and not an actual person in their own right), yes the issue can appear murky and confusing.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#153

Post by kcplate »

sofixa wrote: post #151
kcplate wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland is not the US.

Do you think American doctors would be more willing to go to prison over an abortion? I don't see much difference in the two countries in that regard, if anything American doctors also have to think about their student loans and are probably going to be more religious (Poland has a big Catholic problem but in the US having a religion is basically the norm)

I am saying that no state’s attorney would ever choose prosecute such a case because no US jury would ever convict a doctor that saved a woman’s life by correcting an ectopic pregnancy. Prosecutors have discretion and would take in to account the circumstances. There is not a medical expert in the country who would testify that a ectopic pregnancy is a viable pregnancy that should be left alone to allow nature to take its course…so a conviction would be impossible.

Additionally, because the doctor and the patient are in an established doctor/patient relationship at that point, the doctor has a duty to act to provide the care that they are able to provide to save the mother. Failure to do so could make them legally liable for the mothers death.

Perhaps that is the difference between Poland and the US. Perhaps over in Poland there is not this duty to act and it is legally acceptable to let a patient die that you can save and juries and judges would accept that condition. Wouldn’t happen over here.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#154

Post by ykevinator2 »

lamontcg wrote: post #147
maratc wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm going to wade in I'm going to roe out then. (I'll see myself out.)

Can we keep the reddit pun threads out of an issue which is going to result in the deaths of thousands of young women?

No post body was provided.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#155

Post by ykevinator2 »

jzackpete wrote: post #97
dsr_ wrote: post #43

Let's grant for the sake of this argument and this alone that fertilization signals the beginning of all rights. You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body. You cannot be forced to donate blood, for the same reason. You cannot be forced into surgery. You have the right to refuse medicine. And, in general, you have the right to ingest whatever substances you wa…

This is a silly argument that I've only seen made recently. If I invite someone onto my airplane, am I justified in rescinding consent to them being on the plane, and chucking them out at 15000 feet? Of course not. Even in the case of never having given consent in the first place (e.g. stowaway) that would still be considered murder. To me, it all boils down to when a fetus has rights as a human, and this so called "…

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Re: They Think It's Murder

#156

Post by ykevinator2 »

ristlane wrote: post #28

The article notably does not use the word 'fetus' - only 'embryo' is used. That's one technique to avoid addressing the strongest pro-life arguments. Intellectual honesty demands that we address the strongest versions of our opponent's argument, not just the one that makes us feel the most enlightened and makes 'them' look stupid.

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Re: They Think It's Murder

#157

Post by ykevinator2 »

lapcat wrote: post #79
Beltalowda wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the main argument that Dawkins wanted to make is that many pro-choice arguments are completely missing the point and don't engage with the pro-life arguments at all, rather than try to engage with all pro-life arguments, and do a full exploration of them.

> I think the main argument that Dawkins wanted to make is that many pro-choice arguments are completely missing the point and don't engage with the pro-life arguments at all I agree, but I think Dawkins fell prey to the exact same problem. He ignored the religion behind the pro-life movement and tried to break it down into biological terms. Is that really engaging?

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Re: They Think It's Murder

#158

Post by ykevinator2 »

ALittleLight wrote: post #14

If you don't know, or can't prove, when personhood establishes, then there's at least some chance you are, in fact, killing a person. In my estimation the abortionist doesn't care about the possibility of killing a person because there are no consequences for it.

No post body was provided.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#159

Post by IncRnd »

alexvoda wrote: post #134
maratc wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also shows how women at that time were treated as "glorified property": > If that woman die, his daughter shall be killed. You damaged my property — your property will be equally damaged. Justice! Women wouldn't be treated as equal to men for another 3,500 years or so.

Also, does that mean that according to the Code of Hammurabi, a man without any daughter, can kill as many free women as he pleases without any consequence?

I don't think too many people tried that "crazy amazing loophole that the government doesn't want you to know about but can make you rich".

Looking at the rest of the code, it seems this sort of action is doomed by the adage, "an eye for an eye" - where a blind man might lost a hand instead of an eye.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#160

Post by eloff »

AstralStorm wrote: post #94
eloff wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ectopic pregnancies and other medical emergencies are usually excluded from abortion laws. Law makers could always do something dumb though, there's lots of precedent for that.

Except apparently in Ohio, which now has a law that forces reimplantation of an ectopic pregnancy, a medical procedure that does not exist .

I had to look that up, because I thought nobody could be that dumb.

US lawmakers continue to surprise me!

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