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They Think It's Murder

richarddawkins.com

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101–110 of 170 posts

Re: They Think It's Murder

#101

Post by sparrish »

danaris wrote: post #91
chungy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also opens the possibility that women who have a legitimate miscarriage may be scrutinized as if they were criminals, adding to their trauma. That has literally never been a thing considered by anyone outside the pro-abortion circles. Miscarriages are clearly not the intention of anybody. It may be ending a life, but without the intent and without any act of killing it, it definitionally cannot be murder (the de…

This is untrue. There are women in prison right now because they had miscarriages that they could not "prove" were not their fault.

Citation, please. This is a grandiose claim.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#102

Post by danaris »

sparrish wrote: post #101
danaris wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is untrue. There are women in prison right now because they had miscarriages that they could not "prove" were not their fault.

Citation, please. This is a grandiose claim.

OK, since apparently you can't use a search engine, here's the first result on DDG for "woman imprisoned for miscarriage":

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544

Re: They Think It's Murder

#103

Post by moistly »

dsr_ wrote: post #43

Let's grant for the sake of this argument and this alone that fertilization signals the beginning of all rights. You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body. You cannot be forced to donate blood, for the same reason. You cannot be forced into surgery. You have the right to refuse medicine. And, in general, you have the right to ingest whatever substances you wa…

> You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body

Hell, even a dead body is not forced to give up a kidney if its previous inhabitant did not sign an organ donor consent form.

In America, women have less right to their body than a corpse.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#104

Post by sparrish »

Ekaros wrote: post #60
Jfjfnkdjdj wrote: post #8

Science thinks life begins at fertilization too. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht...

Shouldn't we consider at least sperm to be alive? At least it can move semi-autonomously. Which to me kinda look like being alive. By at least some level of definition of life. Thus life exist before fertilization.

It is life, but not human life. At fertilization, new DNA is formed. It's not the mother's and it's not the father's. It's new human life.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#105

Post by belter »

__sisyphus__ wrote: post #59
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in religions that believe in original sin and potentially heaven with life choices as well as conception being the moment of a soul's existence? Because that's the one we're actually dealing with.

Yeah, this is a good point. I still have a lot of friends from my youth that are pretty serious southern baptists/calvinists, and many of them genuinely believe that aborted babies may actually go to hell. They understand it's a strange thing to say, often admitting they could be wrong, but I suppose it's a more logically sealed version of their beliefs, even if it seems strange.

“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.”

-Steven Weinberg

Re: They Think It's Murder

#106

Post by sparrish »

gedy wrote: post #47
Bud wrote: post #15

Dawkins says that we "need to persuade" them. But he's wrong. We're the majority. They managed to change the law, even though they are a minority. This cannot stand. If they want to change the law, then THEY need to persuade US. That's supposed to be how it works.

> They managed to change the law, even though they are a minority. Are you talking about now or in 1973?

Clearly in 1973, when Roe was fatefully decided. 30 states had laws against abortion at the time. Talk about the minority.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#107

Post by jleyank »

Killing a viable child (somewhere towards the end of the second trimester I think?) is ethically murder. Before that point, it’s a religious issue. And what happens when we can clone stem cells? Are identical twins one or two souls as they came from a single embryo/fertilized cell)?

Re: They Think It's Murder

#108

Post by maratc »

Balgair wrote: post #85
maratc wrote: post #7

Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too. Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus. The issue is a complicated one. We seem…

I'm going to wade in on this against my better interests. To me, the debate seems to have a paradox that can't be resolved using the logic we've inherited from the Enlightenment (mostly). Namely: People have rights to their bodies. Yes, it's super-duper more complicated than just that, I know. But, to my brain, it seems to boil mostly down to that. We have to define rights, people, bodies, what 'have' means, etc. Sur…

> I'm going to wade in

I'm going to roe out then.

(I'll see myself out.)

Re: They Think It's Murder

#109

Post by maratc »

Aune wrote: post #32
maratc wrote: post #7

Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too. Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus. The issue is a complicated one. We seem…

Certainly people who suffer a miscarriage when trying to have children suffer deeply. It is clear then that they lost more than some human tissue. Also if you beat a woman causing her to misscarry, then we look upon that quite a lot harsher than if no miscarriage occured. In general we don't tend to value human life or rights when it is inconvenient to do so though.

> Also if you beat a woman causing her to miscarry

An interesting note: even in the Code of Hammurabi there's a provision for that, and that's from about 4,000 years ago.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#110

Post by maratc »

moistly wrote: post #103
dsr_ wrote: post #43

Let's grant for the sake of this argument and this alone that fertilization signals the beginning of all rights. You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body. You cannot be forced to donate blood, for the same reason. You cannot be forced into surgery. You have the right to refuse medicine. And, in general, you have the right to ingest whatever substances you wa…

> You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body Hell, even a dead body is not forced to give up a kidney if its previous inhabitant did not sign an organ donor consent form. In America, women have less right to their body than a corpse.

> women have less right to their body than a corpse.

I don't think it's a fair argument: someone who needs a kidney may receive it from this dead body or from another one, but a fetus cannot be magically transplanted into a different womb. Choice vs. no choice.

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