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They Think It's Murder

richarddawkins.com

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Re: They Think It's Murder

#21

Post by bryanrasmussen »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #2

In religions that believe in hell based on life choices, the ultimate smart move would be all fetuses aborted. The chance of heaven is 100% that way. What chance of heaven do we get if we are actually born? Maybe 10% at most? Billions are being condemned to eternal damnation if the fetuses are allowed to be born and live a life for at most about 100 years. That seems incredibly selfish and silly and short-sighted. We…

But in religions that believe in original sin and potentially heaven with life choices as well as conception being the moment of a soul's existence? Because that's the one we're actually dealing with.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#22

Post by k__ »

lapcat wrote: post #11

The article completely fails to mention that religious people tend to believe that humans have a "soul" and animals don't, which seems to me to be a massive oversight. Of course Dawkins doesn't believe in the soul, but it's hard to see how his arguments are going to move anyone who does believe. The other problem with the argument is that, on the other side, many vegans believe that killing animals for food is wrong.

What are the properties of a soul?

How does it work with twins from one egg? Does it split?

Re: They Think It's Murder

#23

Post by Bud »

vehemenz wrote: post #13

I strongly agree with one of Dawkins’s most important points, the effectiveness of the reductio ad absurdum as a rhetorical strategy. If you want to persuade people, then you need to meet them where they are and adopt their way of thinking. Accept their premises and worldview, and show that it leads to bizarre, false consequnces.

You think the average Glenn Beck viewer is going to sit still while you "show" this, or "show" anything, and then change their views based on what you have "shown"?

If so, you have been asleep since the Reagan Administration while this fascism has slowly taken hold.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#24

Post by brightball »

maratc wrote: post #7

Not only "They" think it's murder, we as a society tend to think it's murder too. Here's my argument: in most jurisdictions, a killing of a pregnant woman brings harsher sentence than a killing of non-pregnant woman. In some, it just doubles the crime (double homicide, double manslaughter, etc.) Judging from this, we as a society see at least some value in the life of a foetus. The issue is a complicated one. We seem…

This is really the core of it and ultimately the decision to overturn is going to force legislators to finally codify exactly what the rules are. It’s been avoided to this point because both political sides preferred to fund raise off of the issue.

Long overdue.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#25

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

k__ wrote: post #22
lapcat wrote: post #11

The article completely fails to mention that religious people tend to believe that humans have a "soul" and animals don't, which seems to me to be a massive oversight. Of course Dawkins doesn't believe in the soul, but it's hard to see how his arguments are going to move anyone who does believe. The other problem with the argument is that, on the other side, many vegans believe that killing animals for food is wrong.

What are the properties of a soul? How does it work with twins from one egg? Does it split?

The primary property of a soul is its soulfulness.

An egg split into twins because it had too much soulfulness for one person.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#27

Post by shadowfiend »

chungy wrote: post #9

It is murder, simple as that. The moment a sperm fertilizes an egg, a new unique genetic material is formed, which is damn near the closest thing we have to an objective standard of when a new human life is started. Embryo is a stage of development in a human being (and many other life forms on this planet). Maybe it's not synonymous with baby, I could grant that, and allow for baby to represent a different and later…

> none of them involve murdering other humans

A brief look at maternal health outcomes, especially in the United States, should suffice to disabuse you of this notion.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#28

Post by ristlane »

The article notably does not use the word 'fetus' - only 'embryo' is used. That's one technique to avoid addressing the strongest pro-life arguments.

Intellectual honesty demands that we address the strongest versions of our opponent's argument, not just the one that makes us feel the most enlightened and makes 'them' look stupid.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#29

Post by Nrnfkfnrn »

Bud wrote: post #15

Dawkins says that we "need to persuade" them. But he's wrong. We're the majority. They managed to change the law, even though they are a minority. This cannot stand. If they want to change the law, then THEY need to persuade US. That's supposed to be how it works.

A law that was created out of thin air by six unelected judges?

Re: They Think It's Murder

#30

Post by photochemsyn »

Jfjfnkdjdj wrote: post #8

Science thinks life begins at fertilization too. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht...

What science thinks is that life began a little less than 4 billion years ago, as a kind of self-organizing chemical process in the early Earth's oceans, and from that point, life has never stopped. Cells are alive and give rise to other cells. There's a continuity of cellular life from the very nerve cells in your brain that allow you to interpret symbols, going back to your parent's cells, to their parent's cells, and right on back to the dawn of life on earth in one unbroken continuum.
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