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Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

economist.com

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Re: Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep repeating the word "efficient" but there is nothing less efficient than animal farming. By far. Both in terms of land, water and energy usage.

Eh, beef, maybe, but the math basically comes down to: wheat, 4 million calories per acre, corn, 15 million. Take that 15 million calories of corn and feed it to chickens for a 3:1 calorie exchange and you've got 5 million calories of chicken per acre. It's more complicated than that, but corn yields are so high that they can overpower the otherwise inefficiency of meat production. Potatoes are as good as corn, and r…

First, this is an incorrect comparison: chickens eating corn VS humans eating wheat bread. Humans can very much eat corn as well.

Second, you have to consider the conversion rate for each nutrients including calories and proteins and chickens are much less efficient than that.

Also, the environmental impact needs to account for water usage, pollution from the plant and animal farming and energy usage.

Please provide evidence sources if you want to claim otherwise.

Re: Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagree. It richly rewards and strongly encourages behaviors we consider asocial and destructive. Let's take Natchez, Mississippi. In 1850, half of America's millionaires lived there. It was the wealthiest city in the country because we richly rewarded and encouraged human enslavement. The brightest minds had very lucrative careers in slave economics and slave labor studies and there was lots of focus on optimizing…

Disregarding the question as to why humans are inclined to behave in ways that benefit themselves at the expense of others and the environment—writing this off as “natural” or blaming it on a devil and an angel on our shoulders—is, in my opinion, key to ensuring the ongoing tragedy of the commons at planet scale. Yes, in a free society with capitalism people have more opportunities to behave this way. Yes, that’s why…

" suggesting an alternative to capitalism for some reason, I’m reasonably sure that in any of them the society would suffer from the same issues"

capitalism is a term so vague its meaningless in a policy discussion

Neoliberalism, on the other hand, is spesifically responsible for many of the problems we are facing now.

the fact that people worship it is also a problem, we have media hosts calling large scale landlord "weath creators"

for some reason people who make ground breaking discoveries are not called wealth creators and do not become billionaires.

you have to consider who the system rewards, and who the system protects.

shumpeterianism, for exanole, is a spesific alternative that rewards those that create new technologies and where government has an active role in shaping a sustainable industrial strategy

Re: Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

#254
post #249
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all crops involve tilling soil, some orchards are in extremely rocky hilly areas. It’s one of the reasons olive trees are so associated with Italy. Anyway, preparing an area for cultivation is a one time cost. People actually grow crops in areas you consider impossible because someone already put the effort possibly thousands of years ago even if it’s not currently economically viable. Terraces also work in hilly…

You're changing the context of the argument, from "growing stuff people eat" to "growing stuff for grazing, because it makes no sense to grow crops there". Yes, you can grow crops anywhere , on the moon, in shipping containers, in your basement, and yes on terraces and if you spare no expense to change the land. But all of that is silly and absurd , and not part of the context of this discussion. Some of it just is n…

I was responding to how to maximize use of land. Grazing is low investment for low returns, but rarely the only option.

I am explicitly not saying significant investment is economically viable, we have a vast surplus of farmland.

That said, historically people would improve land because they had a labor surplus and few options for long term investments. We are living in a world where thousands of years of such decisions has made some real changes to various landscapes. Much of Asia is covered in terraces because they preferred really flat areas for rice fields and had a huge labor surplus. That’s a legacy I think worth remembering rather than the focus on who was in charge over the course of history.

As to adding topsoil that’s closer to 10 million per 100 acres. Dirt’s very cheap in bulk though transportation long distances isn’t. Nowhere near viable when farmland is cheap and the Canadian Shield is that cold. But orders of magnitude better than you where suggesting.

Re: Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

#255
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you happen to have any links to the talks you mentioned?

Here's two I recently watched. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO__r8Q0bmU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVwrUsib4vU They are a bit dry, as he is an academic through and through, but he is an academic that has spent a large amount of time in the field.

Thank you!

Re: Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, beef, maybe, but the math basically comes down to: wheat, 4 million calories per acre, corn, 15 million. Take that 15 million calories of corn and feed it to chickens for a 3:1 calorie exchange and you've got 5 million calories of chicken per acre. It's more complicated than that, but corn yields are so high that they can overpower the otherwise inefficiency of meat production. Potatoes are as good as corn, and r…

First, this is an incorrect comparison: chickens eating corn VS humans eating wheat bread. Humans can very much eat corn as well. Second, you have to consider the conversion rate for each nutrients including calories and proteins and chickens are much less efficient than that. Also, the environmental impact needs to account for water usage, pollution from the plant and animal farming and energy usage. Please provide…

> First, this is an incorrect comparison: chickens eating corn VS humans eating wheat bread. Humans can very much eat corn as well.

I mean, it compares what it compares. From a land usage and calorie perspective chicken is approximately equivalent to wheat.

> Also, the environmental impact needs to account for water usage, pollution from the plant and animal farming and energy usage.

Yes, I am not accounting for those. The first reason is that I am lazy, and this is a comment on the internet; the second reason is that once you are trying to optimize for land usage, water usage, energy usage, fertilizer usage, human labor, capital costs, run-off pollution, CO2, and everything else, you now need to decide how to weight each factor.

Rice produces almost 3 times as many calories per acre as wheat, but uses more than 3 times as much water (449 gallons / lb vs 132). Which is better?

> Second, you have to consider the conversion rate for each nutrients including calories and proteins and chickens are much less efficient than that.

This is actually where chicken excels.

I should really be comparing chicken to soy, not wheat, because soy is a great source of complete protein.

If you plant 3 acres of soybeans, you'll get 18 million calories worth of soybeans.

If you plant 2 acres of corn and 1 acre of soybeans, you'll get 36 million calories of grains, and if you feed them to chickens, you'll get 12 million calories of chicken.

On a calories-per-acre basis, soy is beating chicken 3:2. But soy only gives you about 0.1 grams of protein per calorie, while chicken gives you more like 0.2 grams of protein per calorie.

So your 3 acres of soybeans give you 1.8 million grams of protein, while your 3 acres of corn+soy->chickens give you 2.4 million grams of protein. So chickens beat soy on protein per acre by 4:3.

> Please provide evidence sources if you want to claim otherwise.

I've stated all the numbers I'm using; if there's one you want to call bullshit on in particular let me know.

Re: Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

#257
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That won't put the water back. Revenge is just the final form of prioritizing the comfort (or discomfort) of a handful of bad actors over the well-being of the other 99.9999% of the world. Punishing the perpetrators won’t put the water back in the same way punishing a murderer won’t bring the victim back. We don’t punish to make right. We punish to deter.

And in 20 years time, it will be your turn to be retroactively punished for currently belonging to a society that is burning the world?

Notice the stark difference between “a few human owners of that agribusiness” and “belong to a society.”

Re: Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

#258
post #178

meat eating is destroying the planet.

That is patently false. It is burning fossil fuels that is destroying the planet by contributing almost 75% of the global Greenhouse Gas Emissions: https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector#sector-by-sec... Please don't spread dangerous lies! By saying that meat is destroying the planet you're distracting from the true source of climate change: oil .

what do you think of the documentary cowspiracy?

in any case if most of the grain production isnt going for feeding humans, it is quite ridiculous.

Re: Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

#259
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Official US agricultural policy and habitual farming practice have made growing maize together with beans and/or squash, tomatoes, and peppers nearly impossible to do competitively. That could be fixed with policy changes that would be fought by the biggest agribusinesses. Corn is among the most efficient natural converters of sunlight into chemical energy useful to the plant (with some left over for the farmer), but…

Global PV cell production is about 1 million square meters per annum. Global farmland is about 45 million square kilometers, approx 1e10 more. Lets say the solar panels cover 10% of the field. That 10% produces 10x as much, so you've approximately doubled your fields overall productivity. We're currently a factor of 1e9 short of producing enough to do so (and it's not like PV cells are not currently produced at scale…

Your numbers are screwy and the metric you're calculating is the wrong one.

Installed solar grew by around 130GW in 2020 according to this https://www.iea.org/reports/solar-pv which implies somewhere on the order of a billion square meters so you're out by a factor of at least 1000

and there about 20TW of electricity production to replace. So we need 120x 2020's output to replace electricity.

Other uses of fuels are about an order of magnitude more

So the delta is about 100-1000 given a decade of production. Less if we start to reign in the gratuitous waste of the west.

The output of your calculation is a testament to how grossly inefficient corn ethanol is. Not an endorsement of it.

Re: Most of the world’s grain is not eaten by humans

#260
post #205
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Official US agricultural policy and habitual farming practice have made growing maize together with beans and/or squash, tomatoes, and peppers nearly impossible to do competitively. That could be fixed with policy changes that would be fought by the biggest agribusinesses. Corn is among the most efficient natural converters of sunlight into chemical energy useful to the plant (with some left over for the farmer), but…

Why would agribusinesses object? (Curious, not disagreeing.)

Less reliance on fertilizer means less money. If beans are fixing nitrogen you can't sell it.

Plus there'd need to be a massive shift in methods which tends to makemit easier for smaller, more adaptable entities

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