Science thinks life begins at fertilization too. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht...
When does a distinct life begin? When the umbilical cord is cut.
They Think It's Murder
111–120 of 170 posts
Re: They Think It's Murder
#112In religions that believe in hell based on life choices, the ultimate smart move would be all fetuses aborted. The chance of heaven is 100% that way. What chance of heaven do we get if we are actually born? Maybe 10% at most? Billions are being condemned to eternal damnation if the fetuses are allowed to be born and live a life for at most about 100 years. That seems incredibly selfish and silly and short-sighted. We…
The vast majority of Christians in the United States believe in salvation by faith alone, not by works.
But how many people even do the faith part before dying? Billions miss out.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body Hell, even a dead body is not forced to give up a kidney if its previous inhabitant did not sign an organ donor consent form. In America, women have less right to their body than a corpse.
> women have less right to their body than a corpse. I don't think it's a fair argument: someone who needs a kidney may receive it from this dead body or from another one, but a fetus cannot be magically transplanted into a different womb. Choice vs. no choice.
Fetuses are utterly incapable of making choices, so your point is not only moot, but absurd.
It also completely misses the important bit: American women have less autonomy over their body than the dead. Justify that, pal.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#114In religions that believe in hell based on life choices, the ultimate smart move would be all fetuses aborted. The chance of heaven is 100% that way. What chance of heaven do we get if we are actually born? Maybe 10% at most? Billions are being condemned to eternal damnation if the fetuses are allowed to be born and live a life for at most about 100 years. That seems incredibly selfish and silly and short-sighted. We…
But in religions that believe in original sin and potentially heaven with life choices as well as conception being the moment of a soul's existence? Because that's the one we're actually dealing with.
Most people I talk to believe in an "age of accountability" and that babies do in fact go to heaven. That age? I'm unsure, it ranges up to about 13.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
Someone else said it here, but in the US you can be forced to give up much more - the ultimate sacrifice - with selective service. So this, too, is a tough rub on logic
Where "you" means specifically males aged 18-25. Coincidentally, 1973, the year Roe v. Wade was decided, was the last year anyone was drafted into the military.
When in college taking 'Women in History' there were (for obvious reasons) all women, save me and two other men.
Professor asked 'Who thinks men and women should have equal rights?' Everyone raised their hands.
'Who is willing to be drafted to protect those rights?' All 3 men, a handful of women raised their hands.
The women in general didn't seem to think it was 'fair'.
Professor continued- 'What about abortion rights? Should they be equal? Parental rights?'
That set the room off. Made all of us uncomfortable, which was her point.
There are double standards all aground, and we clearly as a society haven't figured these things out.
And to be fair, it's a very difficult position for me- as a man, wanting equality for women but also being raised to be a 'gentleman', put women and children first.
I think we should celebrate our differences, and try to iron out the rest.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#116Let's grant for the sake of this argument and this alone that fertilization signals the beginning of all rights. You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body. You cannot be forced to donate blood, for the same reason. You cannot be forced into surgery. You have the right to refuse medicine. And, in general, you have the right to ingest whatever substances you wa…
Someone else said it here, but in the US you can be forced to give up much more - the ultimate sacrifice - with selective service. So this, too, is a tough rub on logic
I think it's completely unremarkable that I can tell you [random HN person] that an argument is useless because people aren't interested in changing their minds, and you attempt to counter the argument.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#117I think most important is considering the 1A. I don't think it's likely to persuade people on this topic, change their minds about what they believe in regards to the subject. But surely we can agree the 1A should be respected? Not everyone agrees life begins at conception/implantation/etc. Opening the door to one religion dominating the laws seems to lead to outlawing contraceptives (preventing implantation of a fer…
When has any religion not fundamentally disregarded all other religions and beliefs?
(Shinto not included)
Re: They Think It's Murder
#118Let's grant for the sake of this argument and this alone that fertilization signals the beginning of all rights. You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body. You cannot be forced to donate blood, for the same reason. You cannot be forced into surgery. You have the right to refuse medicine. And, in general, you have the right to ingest whatever substances you wa…
> Their primary desire is to have a subclass of humans who can be controlled and punished. Arguing with them about this is approximately useless
If this is truly your belief, then you and the pro-lifer are actually closer to each other than you realize. They tend to believe their arguments are lost on you because they think your primary desire is simply to kill people you feel are undesirable and unworthy of life.
I don’t see any value in demonizing the other side like this, it just increases the chasm
Re: They Think It's Murder
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is really the core of it and ultimately the decision to overturn is going to force legislators to finally codify exactly what the rules are. It’s been avoided to this point because both political sides preferred to fund raise off of the issue. Long overdue.
In the meantime, whilst there's debate on legislation, women will die from ectopic pregnancies and other women's health issues that require the termination of a non viable pregnancy. It's very grim.
Yes, this is one of the new “talking point” but it literally assumes that entire medical teams are going to sit on their hands all across the country and let women die.
Let me make my prediction right now that this will never happen.
Re: They Think It's Murder
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
The source does mention the beginning of a "human being" "Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm with a secondary oocyte and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
The argument is made easier by the way we consider the end of human being. Which is why we tend to not keep former people without higher brain functions alive with technology forever/until end of natural lifespan. Applying the same rule to beginning of human life arrives at the standard in Roe v Wade of around 12 weeks, which is to the best of our knowledge when higher brain functions can appear in a fetus, becoming…
> Which is why we tend to not keep former people without higher brain functions alive with technology forever/until end of natural lifespan.
Is there a well defined reason for this or is it actually a question of limited resources?
Would we keep people without higher brain functions alive with technology forever/until end of natural lifespan if the cost was 0? Why or why not?
A pragmatic viewpoint probably gives a quick answer but a ideological viewpoint could go eitherway.