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They Think It's Murder

richarddawkins.com

51–60 of 170 posts

Re: They Think It's Murder

#51
post #43

Let's grant for the sake of this argument and this alone that fertilization signals the beginning of all rights. You cannot be forced to donate a kidney to save someone else's life: they have no claim on your body. You cannot be forced to donate blood, for the same reason. You cannot be forced into surgery. You have the right to refuse medicine. And, in general, you have the right to ingest whatever substances you wa…

Someone else said it here, but in the US you can be forced to give up much more - the ultimate sacrifice - with selective service.

So this, too, is a tough rub on logic

Re: They Think It's Murder

#53
post #15

Dawkins says that we "need to persuade" them. But he's wrong. We're the majority. They managed to change the law, even though they are a minority. This cannot stand. If they want to change the law, then THEY need to persuade US. That's supposed to be how it works.

I don't think it's wise to say something is majority or minority view. I'm not talking about this issue specifically, but social/political issues in general.

Certain biases are amplified while other biases are kept hidden. There is the bias of the main stream media to promote a certain agenda, there is a bias in the social media algorithms that tend to promote certain view points and hide others. There is the issue where corporations pander to what they believe will get them social credits, or at least stop them from getting canceled. There is the issue where a group of people with certain viewpoints are extremely vocal compared to the opposing group.

There was/is a giant shitshow with the whole thing surrounding Elon buying Twitter. A bunch of people came out and said that social media needs to be regulated, that free speech is under attack...just from the simple fact that Elon was going to buy Twitter. This alone tells me that one side controls the allowed narrative on these platforms. It's not that free speech was under attack, it's that THEIR speech was under attack, because they hold the monopoly on controlling the narrative.

You have to toe the line, or face social excommunication.

This all gives the impression that something is a majority view, when in fact the view is just amplified to make it seem like the majority view. This is a brilliant strategy for a group that wants to push an agenda, because social proof is a powerful way to get people to agree with you. Group consensus is a powerful tool. People don't want to be in the "outcast group" they want to be with all the cool kids.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#54
post #44
post #16

My only issue with the staunch anti-abortion stance is that there have been women who have died because the doctors couldn't decide quickly enough whether an abortion was medically necessary, or outright refused anyway. There have been politicians who have espoused the opinion that ectopic pregnancies also have a "right to life" even though it is physically impossible for them to be viable, and cannot be implanted in…

> It also opens the possibility that women who have a legitimate miscarriage may be scrutinized as if they were criminals, adding to their trauma. That has literally never been a thing considered by anyone outside the pro-abortion circles. Miscarriages are clearly not the intention of anybody. It may be ending a life, but without the intent and without any act of killing it, it definitionally cannot be murder (the de…

What if a woman takes a drug that causes her to miscarry?

Re: They Think It's Murder

#55
post #37

I take the liberal position that pro choice fades into a right to life, especially around viability but the fade is still ongoing even then (takes more and more extreme circumstances to abort an embryo that is less dependent) That said, the late-term and even post-term abortions that are happening now mean that if I am forced to choose between complete restriction and late/post, I will support whatever laws restrict…

Yes I really think the no compromise, extremist positions are the minorities, but they get all the attention and mask the fact that Americans would largely agree on middle grounds, similar to European laws.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#56
post #15

Dawkins says that we "need to persuade" them. But he's wrong. We're the majority. They managed to change the law, even though they are a minority. This cannot stand. If they want to change the law, then THEY need to persuade US. That's supposed to be how it works.

It's really a rights issue. A woman's right to body autonomy vs the right to life of a fertilized egg.

Majority rule doesn't work if 51% think slavery is okay. =(

These extremists don't want exceptions for rape and incest. And make it a felony to seek an abortion. The fucking Taliban are nodding and taking notes.

And Iowa only recently patched the loop hole that gave a rapist parental rights.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#57

In religions that believe in hell based on life choices, the ultimate smart move would be all fetuses aborted. The chance of heaven is 100% that way. What chance of heaven do we get if we are actually born? Maybe 10% at most? Billions are being condemned to eternal damnation if the fetuses are allowed to be born and live a life for at most about 100 years. That seems incredibly selfish and silly and short-sighted. We…

Never underestimate the logical contortions of religions. For centuries the Catholic Church stance was, dead non-baptized, children and babies, would be denied Heaven.

"Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries": https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-limbo-idUSL202872162...

Re: They Think It's Murder

#58
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also opens the possibility that women who have a legitimate miscarriage may be scrutinized as if they were criminals, adding to their trauma. That has literally never been a thing considered by anyone outside the pro-abortion circles. Miscarriages are clearly not the intention of anybody. It may be ending a life, but without the intent and without any act of killing it, it definitionally cannot be murder (the de…

What if a woman takes a drug that causes her to miscarry?

Then it'll depend on the intent.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#59

In religions that believe in hell based on life choices, the ultimate smart move would be all fetuses aborted. The chance of heaven is 100% that way. What chance of heaven do we get if we are actually born? Maybe 10% at most? Billions are being condemned to eternal damnation if the fetuses are allowed to be born and live a life for at most about 100 years. That seems incredibly selfish and silly and short-sighted. We…

But in religions that believe in original sin and potentially heaven with life choices as well as conception being the moment of a soul's existence? Because that's the one we're actually dealing with.

Yeah, this is a good point. I still have a lot of friends from my youth that are pretty serious southern baptists/calvinists, and many of them genuinely believe that aborted babies may actually go to hell. They understand it's a strange thing to say, often admitting they could be wrong, but I suppose it's a more logically sealed version of their beliefs, even if it seems strange.

Re: They Think It's Murder

#60

Science thinks life begins at fertilization too. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.ht...

Shouldn't we consider at least sperm to be alive? At least it can move semi-autonomously. Which to me kinda look like being alive. By at least some level of definition of life. Thus life exist before fertilization.
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