College has been oversold • Hacker News Board

Re: College has been oversold

#31

Post by jerf » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:31 PM UTC

hemancuso wrote: post #13

pflats wrote: post #6

This is a consequence of the concerted effort by educators to increase post-secondary enrollment in the United States. Presumably, the students likely to enroll in a math or science program were (by and large) already heading to college 25 years ago. As a metric for high schools, students enrolling in and graduating from a 4-year college is one of the most important numbers in the all-important school ranking. Studen…

Let me get this straight - you're arguing that increased college enrollment over the past 25 years is some sort of conspiracy perpetrated by secondary school administrators to better their own rankings?

Ever since society generally decided everyone needs to go to college, all sorts of little incentives have been adding up all over the place to create the effect of getting everyone in the system. That's not the single cause of everything, it's a snapshot of a broader trend that has affected the entire process from top to bottom. You could play the "zoom in on one aspect and mock the idea it could be the cause" all day long with all sorts of little causes... but that would just be a rhetorical game trying desperately to avoid the totality of the situation which is clear as day.

Re: College has been oversold

#32

Post by _delirium » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:32 PM UTC

quanticle wrote: post #18

marklabedz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is the lack of critical thinking, problem solving and communication skills from the other side. EDIT: In response to some of the questions below, please let me clarify. When I said "other side" I was meaning a lack of well-roundedness. I was NOT trying to pit STEM grads against liberal arts grads. I do not intend to state that STEM graduates don't know problem solving or critical thinking. Far from it. However in…

I am willing to posit that a lack of statistical knowledge does more harm to critical thinking than a lack of rhetorical knowledge.

I'm a stats-heavy computer scientist, but I'd argue the opposite, that the ability to construct and evaluate a rigorous argument is the first thing lacking: one that plausibly analyzes the domain, recounts opposing arguments reasonably fairly, constructs counterarguments that are responsive to the opponents' arguments, and uses logical argumentation along with empirical evidence in a way that actually supports its points.

Statistics does fit into that, as one particular species of correctly using empirical evidence. But most freshmen students aren't even constructing coherent arguments in the broad sense; having a technical knowledge of statistical theorems isn't the main bottleneck. This is actually a common problem in my classes: technically-solid students who can't write a coherent essay-length or blog-post-length argument in favor of or against a point. The better students tended to have taken at least a Philosophy 101 course, which taught them how to write a basic "argument for or against a position" paper. Once you have that, there's a pretty good basis on which to expand the argumentation toolbox with statistical arguments.

Re: College has been oversold

#33

Post by mechanical_fish » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:32 PM UTC

tdfx wrote: post #5

The scariest part is that all the people I know who have no confidence in their intelligence ("Oh, I could never major in THAT, I'd have to take Calculus! I hate math!") avoid the science majors and are majoring in education. I think that being a teacher should require a 7-8 year graduate education track similar to a doctor or lawyer, not a quick 4-year liberal arts degree that most people shoot for so that they only…

The best math teacher I ever had, an inspirational force who was a major reason I got through high school happy and successful, had an undergraduate degree in... something. Not sure it was math, actually.

Definitely no education degree, though. Not even an undergraduate one.

Poor guy couldn't even get an interview today. To see if you're a decent teacher today you must first incur enormous educational debts. Then you try teaching.

Mindless credentialism is a terrible force.

Re: College has been oversold

#34

Post by pandaman » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:33 PM UTC

marklabedz wrote: post #8

forkandwait wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making everyone get through 2 semesters of calculus and a real probability class would help both their well roundedness and employee-ability. The lack of numeracy and scientific background among otherwise well educated people is shameful.

As is the lack of critical thinking, problem solving and communication skills from the other side. EDIT: In response to some of the questions below, please let me clarify. When I said "other side" I was meaning a lack of well-roundedness. I was NOT trying to pit STEM grads against liberal arts grads. I do not intend to state that STEM graduates don't know problem solving or critical thinking. Far from it. However in…

Many people seem to be confused by this statement but I am guessing your liberal arts school taught you that "critical thinking" is what critics do, am I correct?

Re: College has been oversold

#35

Post by jerf » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:35 PM UTC

fiesycal wrote: post #23

marklabedz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is the lack of critical thinking, problem solving and communication skills from the other side. EDIT: In response to some of the questions below, please let me clarify. When I said "other side" I was meaning a lack of well-roundedness. I was NOT trying to pit STEM grads against liberal arts grads. I do not intend to state that STEM graduates don't know problem solving or critical thinking. Far from it. However in…

Are you suggesting an engineering degree or computer science degree etc. don't teach critical thinking and problem solving skills? I'd concede that better communication skills should be taught.

I won't so concede. Schools have been making concerted efforts for a while now to teach engineers better communication skills, and now that I work in a heavy-duty engineering environment it is clearly not the case that every engineer comes out of school a drooling asocial moron.

In fact recently some job reqs were going around the company through several of the "communication" oriented people, and it was the engineers correcting the grammar and improving the flow of the text.

An unkind impulse suggests that when logic and traditional rhetoric become the domain of "dead prejudiced white guys" you're not looking at the ideal environment for teaching communication skills. The writing of some of my high school acquaintances with English or Journalism degrees blows my mind, and not in a good way.

Re: College has been oversold

#36

Post by yummyfajitas » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:39 PM UTC

impendia wrote: post #28

tdfx wrote: post #5

The scariest part is that all the people I know who have no confidence in their intelligence ("Oh, I could never major in THAT, I'd have to take Calculus! I hate math!") avoid the science majors and are majoring in education. I think that being a teacher should require a 7-8 year graduate education track similar to a doctor or lawyer, not a quick 4-year liberal arts degree that most people shoot for so that they only…

Funny you suggest a track similar to law/med school. In those progressions graduates can expect to make well into the six figures. If we doubled teachers' pay, lightened their workload, and most importantly did not require teachers to answer so stringently to administrators (and voters and homebuyers) who mainly care about test scores, I would agree this is a good idea. I have a friend who's a teacher, who works hard…

How light a workload do teachers need? As it stands now, full time teachers [1] work only 38.5 hours/week (on average).

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf

I'm not sure how increasing pay, further reducing work hours, and completely eliminating accountability will do anything other than buy teacher's loyalties in an election year.

Incidentally, there is also little evidence that postgraduate degrees in education improve student outcomes. They increase teacher pay (according to union-negotiated pay scales), but don't help the students.

[1] Those who work at least 35 hours/week.

Re: College has been oversold

#37

Post by wanorris » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:41 PM UTC

forkandwait wrote: post #4

keiferski wrote: post #3

A liberal arts education is just as worth it today as it was 300 years ago. The current problem is that the cost of a liberal arts degree has spiraled out of control. There's no reason why an English or Philosophy degree needs to cost $15k a year. Making everyone an engineer or scientist isn't the answer.

Making everyone get through 2 semesters of calculus and a real probability class would help both their well roundedness and employee-ability. The lack of numeracy and scientific background among otherwise well educated people is shameful.

Making everyone get through 2 semesters of calculus and a real probability class frankly sounds like a great idea for reforming high school.

Why they can't take kids through "high school" algebra in middle school and have them ready to take more serious math in high school is a mystery to me. From what I gather, a considerably accelerated math curriculum is common in other countries.

Is there any reason other than inertia that we can't do this?

Re: College has been oversold

#38

Post by maratd » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:44 PM UTC

joshklein wrote: post #27

I have a similar conclusion but slightly different reasoning. And I want to defend liberal arts majors a bit, since I'm one of them. To me, the problem is that most people don't view college as an investment in their future, but rather as a temporary place to delay choices. Certainly, it is positioned as an investment by educators, and it is probably true for science & engineering degrees, but do students approach it…

> Really, it's a cultural problem.

No, it's an economic one.

> I have a liberal arts degree from an "elite private university".

Ok. Let's make the assumption that you're at least moderately intelligent and would be able to get a job for 40K from the bat.

40K * 4 = 160K

College tuition is 40K itself at an "elite private university". Then you add living expenses, books, food, etc. and you have another 25K. That's 65K.

65K * 4 = 260K

160K + 260K = 420K

Yup. Half a mil to learn about Poetry Writing. Sorry, but that's just silly.

I would much rather my kid spend his time working in a small business and learning about entrepreneurship hands-on, than pissing away untold fortunes to sleep in a class about poetry. You can slip the kid some Robert Frost after work.

Trust me, if he has an inquisitive mind, he'll explore all the weird and strange subjects on his own time. With the internet, he can even be challenged by greater minds.

The best argument for college is the social environment, which can't be replicated outside of it. Not education. The kids get that. That's why they don't go to class.

Re: College has been oversold

#39

Post by edderly » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:47 PM UTC

gerggerg wrote: post #19

lets not forget that all this increased enrollment increases the price of education and puts a strain on resources for all of us. Not only were there slightly less comp sci graduates but they grossly overpaid for their education compared to graduates in 1985. One of the biggest bummers about that chart is the increase in debt it represents.

I'm curious about this, how does the price of education increase because of increased enrollment? I just figure when lot's of people go to Walmart that doesn't increase the cost of their goods.

Or are you inferring that colleges could fallback on their endowments with fewer students? I'm not sure many institutions could rely on this.

Re: College has been oversold

#40

Post by nekojima » Wed, Nov 02, 2011, 2:48 PM UTC

quanticle wrote: post #18

marklabedz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is the lack of critical thinking, problem solving and communication skills from the other side. EDIT: In response to some of the questions below, please let me clarify. When I said "other side" I was meaning a lack of well-roundedness. I was NOT trying to pit STEM grads against liberal arts grads. I do not intend to state that STEM graduates don't know problem solving or critical thinking. Far from it. However in…

I am willing to posit that a lack of statistical knowledge does more harm to critical thinking than a lack of rhetorical knowledge.

I'd suggest that 9 times out of 8 many STEMs have contextual biases that fail to account for general knowledge that otherwise would strengthen their argumentative position.