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College has been oversold

marginalrevolution.com

21–30 of 254 posts

Re: College has been oversold

#21

A liberal arts education is just as worth it today as it was 300 years ago. The current problem is that the cost of a liberal arts degree has spiraled out of control. There's no reason why an English or Philosophy degree needs to cost $15k a year. Making everyone an engineer or scientist isn't the answer.

Making everyone get through 2 semesters of calculus and a real probability class would help both their well roundedness and employee-ability. The lack of numeracy and scientific background among otherwise well educated people is shameful.

That's a problem with high school, not university.

Re: College has been oversold

#22
As a college-level instructor (with a PhD in those -- gasp -- liberal arts), might I suggest two things?

First, the critical thinking I learned reading poetry better prepared me for business management, web development, and entrepreneurship than any of my Chemistry courses (I was also a Chemistry minor in Undergrad). I'd be happy to go into the details, but this doesn't seem like the forum for that explanation.

And second, again, as an instructor, one of the bigger problems in the humanities is grade inflation and a sense of entitlement to A's. Whereas in a Calculus class, grading is much easier to quantify (i.e. get X number of questions right on a test, end up with Y grade), grading papers is a less standardized practice. The result is overwhelming grade inflation (I can't tell you the number of students I have who quite literally break down in tears when they receive B's). Perhaps both the utility of humanities degrees and the propensity for being willing to challenge oneself in a STEM course would be increased if getting higher grades wasn't perceived as being easier in the humanities.

Re: College has been oversold

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making everyone get through 2 semesters of calculus and a real probability class would help both their well roundedness and employee-ability. The lack of numeracy and scientific background among otherwise well educated people is shameful.

As is the lack of critical thinking, problem solving and communication skills from the other side. EDIT: In response to some of the questions below, please let me clarify. When I said "other side" I was meaning a lack of well-roundedness. I was NOT trying to pit STEM grads against liberal arts grads. I do not intend to state that STEM graduates don't know problem solving or critical thinking. Far from it. However in…

Are you suggesting an engineering degree or computer science degree etc. don't teach critical thinking and problem solving skills? I'd concede that better communication skills should be taught.

Re: College has been oversold

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making everyone get through 2 semesters of calculus and a real probability class would help both their well roundedness and employee-ability. The lack of numeracy and scientific background among otherwise well educated people is shameful.

As is the lack of critical thinking, problem solving and communication skills from the other side. EDIT: In response to some of the questions below, please let me clarify. When I said "other side" I was meaning a lack of well-roundedness. I was NOT trying to pit STEM grads against liberal arts grads. I do not intend to state that STEM graduates don't know problem solving or critical thinking. Far from it. However in…

Could you explain what you mean by the terms "critical thinking" and "other side"?

Re: College has been oversold

#25
It's pretty obvious that the cost benefit analysis of getting a non-technical/non-business degree shows that it's not worth it, unless you can pay for it in cash. Getting $100k+ in student loans for a degree in which you can't pay off quickly will only lead to years of indebtedness.

At the current prices that students have to pay, it's simply not worth it. If I had a kid that wanted to go into liberal arts, I would suggest that they take a technical degree, and do night school for their liberal arts education, and I would forbid them from getting student loans.

As the old Wall Street adage goes, the cure for high prices is high prices. At some point, people will stop sending their kids to college if the prices keep increasing like this, and then something will have to be done about it. Unfortunately, it means that the current generation of kids will become the new debt slaves until this education crisis is stopped.

Re: College has been oversold

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As is the lack of critical thinking, problem solving and communication skills from the other side. EDIT: In response to some of the questions below, please let me clarify. When I said "other side" I was meaning a lack of well-roundedness. I was NOT trying to pit STEM grads against liberal arts grads. I do not intend to state that STEM graduates don't know problem solving or critical thinking. Far from it. However in…

I am willing to posit that a lack of statistical knowledge does more harm to critical thinking than a lack of rhetorical knowledge.

Likely so for critical thinking (Common sense not being so common and all that...). Additionally though, an inability to understand and thoroughly evaluate a problem or articulate its solution, is certainly a challenge as well.

Re: College has been oversold

#27
I have a similar conclusion but slightly different reasoning. And I want to defend liberal arts majors a bit, since I'm one of them.

To me, the problem is that most people don't view college as an investment in their future, but rather as a temporary place to delay choices. Certainly, it is positioned as an investment by educators, and it is probably true for science & engineering degrees, but do students approach it that way?

I have a liberal arts degree from an "elite private university", and I can tell you that the school's approach was to give someone like me everything they could possibly need to succeed, but to leave it up to me to do the actual succeeding. My major's requirements had only 8 classes - 1.5 semesters. Our "core curriculum" had a diversity of requirements, but all were easily gotten around; the science core was easily satisfied by courses such as "Solar System Astronomy", "Oceanography", or "Stars, Galaxies, and the Cosmos", as opposed to Calculus 101 or what-have-you.

I took those classes, but I took those classes in all seriousness. They may have been soft on the hardcore science, but they opened up the breadth of my understanding of the world. Some others in my class did not - they were not at school to invest themselves, and that was their right.

I think I'm much better at the work I do today because I took classes with titles all the way from Quantitative Political Methodology, to Metaphysics & Epistomology, to The Political Economy of Development, to Psych 101, to Poetry Writing, to Arabic, to Computer Science 201, to The American Frontier.

But that's because I took all of those courses dead seriously. That's what makes college a good investment. Well, and the life experience itself, but that's not exactly an "investment" in the monetary sense.

If you don't approach school that way, you're not just wasting your money on tuition - there's a massive opportunity cost. 4 years of failing at a startup is certainly a better business education than an undergrad business degree from my school.

Really, it's a cultural problem. It's like a stomach ache after eating too much candy; things were so good for so long, we collectively forgot what it was like to have to sacrifice and work for the things you want. Applying for entrance to school and actually graduating doesn't have much of anything to do with your education. That's something you have to work for.

Now, is it "in the state's interest" to promote, say, English majors? I think that's a whole different topic. I think anyone who is asking the taxpayer to fund their education needs to be ready to pay that back with directly applicable skills, which would seem to suggest you mostly need scientists & engineers.

Re: College has been oversold

#28
post #5

The scariest part is that all the people I know who have no confidence in their intelligence ("Oh, I could never major in THAT, I'd have to take Calculus! I hate math!") avoid the science majors and are majoring in education. I think that being a teacher should require a 7-8 year graduate education track similar to a doctor or lawyer, not a quick 4-year liberal arts degree that most people shoot for so that they only…

Funny you suggest a track similar to law/med school. In those progressions graduates can expect to make well into the six figures.

If we doubled teachers' pay, lightened their workload, and most importantly did not require teachers to answer so stringently to administrators (and voters and homebuyers) who mainly care about test scores, I would agree this is a good idea.

I have a friend who's a teacher, who works hard, and who is picking up boring temp work for $10/hour almost every weekend so she can get out of town in December. That's just sad to me.

I have heard from people who know that turnover in the classroom is already high, even among people who got a 1 year intensive master's degree in teaching. In principle, I'd like to set the bar higher as you suggest, but the first priority is to make teaching an attractive profession.

Re: College has been oversold

#29
post #6

This is a consequence of the concerted effort by educators to increase post-secondary enrollment in the United States. Presumably, the students likely to enroll in a math or science program were (by and large) already heading to college 25 years ago. As a metric for high schools, students enrolling in and graduating from a 4-year college is one of the most important numbers in the all-important school ranking. Studen…

I'm not sure it's all on the educators' side. It's also been pushed strongly by parents, because for the last few decades having a degree versus not having a degree has been the single best predictor of getting a white-collar job. Doesn't even matter what the degree is in; a 4-year degree qualifies you to get past the "need degree" HR screen in all sorts of generic office jobs, and the pay gap between "generic liberal arts degree" and "high-school diploma" has been large and growing since the 1950s.

Re: College has been oversold

#30

I agree that it's been oversold. I met many people in school who couldn't compare and contrast essays that were in direct opposition to one another. They shouldn't have been in school to begin with. I'm not sure I agree about the science part though. Isn't the pay for scientists rather low for the most part? Seems like my scientist friends are always poor. Seems like we could use more engineers though.

Isn't the pay for scientists rather low for the most part? Seems like my scientist friends are always poor.

Academic scientists have low wages, but high non-wage compensation (after they win the tenure tournament).

Scientists tend to have much higher pay (and lower non-wage comp) when they enter the private sector.

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