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Investigating the effects of bike lanes in Minneapolis

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Re: Investigating the effects of bike lanes in Minneapolis

#251

Post by tablespoon »

closeparen wrote: post #152
jader201 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's fucking crazy that we do this. I don't know how much more emphasis I can put on it. I usually jump on a soapbox whenever I see so much support for getting rid of cars on HN, so here goes: Not everyone lives in a city. I’m 100% in agreement for all of these arguments, with the precondition that you live in the city . But many prefer and enjoy distance from neighbors, commerce/industry, and enjoy being surrounde…

Almost no one is actually surrounded by a natural environment. The suburbia that pervades in America is surrounded by deeply un -natural roadway, parking, gas stations, strip malls, and big box stores. For most people, any time you're outside your home you're in a thoroughly human-crafted world. The question is to what ends that craft is directed. Too many places are optimized for the convenient operation of cars abo…

>> But many prefer and enjoy distance from neighbors, commerce/industry, and enjoy being surrounded by a more natural environment.

> Almost no one is actually surrounded by a natural environment.

He didn't say "a natural environment." He said a "more natural environment," which I hazard to guess means stuff like more grass and trees and less concrete outside the window.

Oh, and BTW: I live in surburbia and actually have a patch of legitimate forest in my backyard.

Re: Investigating the effects of bike lanes in Minneapolis

#252

Post by AlecSchueler »

ericmay wrote: post #125
AlecSchueler wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why would their choices be so different to their counterparts in Europe? Especially Denmark, Netherlands, Germany, France, UK etc? Their counterparts in China? If the infrastructure is built for a certain vehicle then it's not really a choice is it?

Is the Netherlands building 4 to 8 lane highways, tearing down buildings in major cities and building overpasses, and expanding streets so that they can easily fit and park Ford F-150 size trucks? Are there multi-acre shopping malls, Wal-Marts, and associated parking lots? > If the infrastructure is built for a certain vehicle then it's not really a choice is it? Right... that's why I don't agree that anybody is choo…

I meant to support you argument, not deny it.

Re: Investigating the effects of bike lanes in Minneapolis

#253

Post by clint »

tablespoon wrote: post #250
aiisjustanif wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> to just live their lives > if you pick someplace close to your job, you have to drive far less than "20 miles, 40 minutes." I’d make a good wager that “living their lives”, did not mean going to work. It’s going to the park or the “nice, bustling area” of town a.k.a. the walkable area like the farmers market. > but those businesses just wouldn't be viable at the density I also want to live in. The density you want…

> I’d make a good wager that “living their lives”, did not mean going to work. It’s going to the park or the “nice, bustling area” of town a.k.a. the walkable area like the farmers market. Did you know that suburbs also have parks, shopping, etc. right? > The density you want to live in doesn’t sound like it promotes social interactions, FYI, "promoting social interactions" does not require density. Honestly, it seem…

> Honestly, it seems you have the strange idea that a particular kind of urban living (that you probably prefer or idealize) is the only kind of good living, and therefore feel the need to take a piss on every other type.

That's odd I get the exact same vibe from you.

Re: Investigating the effects of bike lanes in Minneapolis

#254

Post by tablespoon »

clint wrote: post #253
tablespoon wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’d make a good wager that “living their lives”, did not mean going to work. It’s going to the park or the “nice, bustling area” of town a.k.a. the walkable area like the farmers market. Did you know that suburbs also have parks, shopping, etc. right? > The density you want to live in doesn’t sound like it promotes social interactions, FYI, "promoting social interactions" does not require density. Honestly, it seem…

> Honestly, it seems you have the strange idea that a particular kind of urban living (that you probably prefer or idealize) is the only kind of good living, and therefore feel the need to take a piss on every other type. That's odd I get the exact same vibe from you.

> That's odd I get the exact same vibe from you.

Then you're projecting. I never said urban living was bad or inferior, just that it's not for me and that a lot of the negative characterizations being thrown around about it are incorrect. If you want to live in an apartment block downtown and bike everywhere, more power to you. Just don't put down suburbanites as anti-social people who are "forced" to drive 20 miles to experience "parks" and the "'nice, bustling area' of town" (because I guess there's nothing good in wasteland suburbia).

Re: Investigating the effects of bike lanes in Minneapolis

#255

Post by dionidium »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #215
dionidium wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're at a bit of an impasse here because I simply don't find those self-reports credible. These folks are salty about the changes. They're not going to tell people that it's going swimmingly. Does it pass any kind of smell test that most of the traffic in these shops arrived by automobile? We don't need to ask them, anyway. I feel like it'd be pretty easy to set up a test to simply observe how people arrive at shops…

This reads as "I don't believe it's a problem and I don't believe it when people tell me it's a problem". Why exactly do you think these merchants are salty about the changes? What reason do they have to misreport on this stuff?

I think it's pretty easy to think of reasons:

1. They drive to work and erroneously assume their customers also arrive by car

2. They're more likely to be old and dedicated to a car-centric society

3. They're more likely to live in outer boroughs and don't care much about neighborhood walkability

4. They heavily protested the changes and are invested in the idea that it wouldn't work

5. The minority of their customers who do drive are very loud. They hear them complain whenever they come in and so erroneously assume they're representative.

6. Self-reports are generally unreliable and inferior to actual measurement

I think I could probably think of more, if I had to.

Re: Investigating the effects of bike lanes in Minneapolis

#256

Post by closeparen »

tablespoon wrote: post #251
closeparen wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost no one is actually surrounded by a natural environment. The suburbia that pervades in America is surrounded by deeply un -natural roadway, parking, gas stations, strip malls, and big box stores. For most people, any time you're outside your home you're in a thoroughly human-crafted world. The question is to what ends that craft is directed. Too many places are optimized for the convenient operation of cars abo…

>> But many prefer and enjoy distance from neighbors, commerce/industry, and enjoy being surrounded by a more natural environment. > Almost no one is actually surrounded by a natural environment. He didn't say "a natural environment." He said a " more natural environment," which I hazard to guess means stuff like more grass and trees and less concrete outside the window. Oh, and BTW: I live in surburbia and actually…

>more grass and trees and less concrete

I would challenge the degree to which contemporary suburban sprawl developments actually deliver on this promise: wander around any of them, your field of view is going to be dominated by a wide road making a sweeping curve, huge driveways, imposing garage doors, and (maybe, if any houses are visible behind the garages) giant masses of vinyl siding. There's at least as much inorganic material in the vista as in any Manhattan streetscape, it's just the ugly and utilitarian kind, designed to facilitate efficient through-travel and car storage instead of something designed to be pleasant or inviting to people in itself.

You can have a nice patch of nature privately in your backyard, and perhaps in dedicated parks and preserves, but the connective tissue between all that stuff is remarkably hostile to any mode of engagement besides passing through at speed.

Re: Investigating the effects of bike lanes in Minneapolis

#257

Post by nick_ »

mdasen wrote: post #133
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oil and car companies just sell a product that people want to buy. Toyota didn’t hold a gun to my head to get me to buy an SUV that gets 15 miles a gallon. Attacking them is an out to avoid confronting the real issue, which is that you don’t like the life choices most other Americans are making.

> Toyota didn’t hold a gun to my head to get me to buy an SUV No, but lots of things push people to buy those vehicles. As others buy giant vehicles, you might want to buy a giant vehicle so that you feel safer on the road. If everyone is riding around in a 4,000 pound (1,800 kg) SUV whose bumper is very tall, you don't want to be riding around in a 3,000 pound (1,350 kg) car whose bumper is low. As we mandate parkin…

Preach!

Re: Investigating the effects of bike lanes in Minneapolis

#258

Post by willio58 »

Paianni wrote: post #213
willio58 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, they started doing the same dumb car-centric infrastructure as the US around the 50s but unlike us they stopped when they saw how it was negatively affecting life for their people.

Is it not a wee bit short-sighted to label everything car-centric undertaken in the 50s and 60s 'dumb' when the planners and engineers of the day were learning just as they are today?

I agree, the ‘dumb’ in my comment comes from an anger i feel toward these planners. They engineered the life around us, but instead of doing it in an intelligent way, they allowed car companies and dictate our lives for decades to come. Now the younger generations are stuck in concrete and asphalt worlds confused why they can’t walk to the grocery store without crossing a 6-lane stroad.
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