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Racism in Tech

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Re: Racism in Tech

#161

Post by hackinthebochs »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #152
wallawe wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck finding anywhere in the entire world where racism doesn't exist. To say it doesn't is ignorant. It's ingrained in our evolutionary traits to have tendency to group and divide whether it be over race, culture, political or religious beliefs. Some people don't have the intelligence however to rationally overcome the natural inclinations toward whatever bias we may subconsciously harbor. This has been true for…

It's not a solution to the racism or discrimination problems, but it is a solution to the low self-esteem and self-worth problem of being from a marginalized minority.

Downvoters: care to weigh in why you disagree? I expect more from HN readers.

Edit: nothing like a good race discussion to bring out the lurkers and trolls.

Re: Racism in Tech

#162

Post by thret »

Jun8 wrote: post #47

I am fed up with all the bla bla around this issue. Really. Look, if you think there is racism in the tech field (let us define this narrowly as prejudices against blacks; prejudices against Indians and Chinese are, I think, a bit different), stop writing cute, angry blog posts; instead write about what the solution is and what you are doing about it. That there are too few blacks in the tech industry is a fact. The…

This blog would be more interesting if he would just name the customer in question.

Re: Racism in Tech

#163

Post by harichinnan »

rtperson wrote: post #131
freemarketteddy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.In fact I would say that statistically Indians who have been educated in India are not good managers period. I am myself an Indian and I have a bachelors degree from an Indian University. In my experience working for corpora…

There's a term for these tendencies: the Power Distance Index. ( http://www.lessonsoffailure.com/developers/real-reason-outso... ) The idea behind PDI is that leaders in some cultures expect, and even to an extent welcome, subordinates who question them. And there are other cultures where leaders expect obedience above all, regardless of any objective measure of correctness. India is a high-PDI country. If you're tak…

It's not entirely true in Indian tech industry. Every year most companies lose up to 20 percent of their workforce because they move to higher paying jobs and better companies. This is a serious issue that managers are usually at the mercy of their talented engineers.

Re: Racism in Tech

#164

Post by Duff »

ww wrote: post #30
d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead po…

Totally different situation.

In a large corporate setting with lots of dumb management, a majority of those Indians are going to be contractors, and a majority of them will be on work visas.

Why is that relevant? They are hired guns, who are supposed to go when the project ends. And they are exploited to the hilt by their staffing agencies.

Racist? I don't think so. Exploitive and amoral? Absolutely.

There are many examples of Indians leading technology businesses and managing technology departments in the US. In many ways, the Indian immigrants who get green-cards or citizenship are probably the best example of the mythical "melting pot" in today's society.

Re: Racism in Tech

#165

Post by ksolanki »

ww wrote: post #30
d3x wrote: post #6

This entire issue is crap. I am a black programmer... I have no college education, came from single family home blah blah womp womp. I have launched 10+ projects for clients this year alone. I have 1 failed contract where I left because it just didn't work out. When I had success it was not because I was black and when I failed it was not because I was black. Both when I have succeeded and when I have failed was neve…

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead po…

The probable reason why you see 50-80% Indians in the in the team, but few in management or team lead positions is that, they somehow put up with this bias, that they somehow are happy with what they get. Aren't there a majority of agricultural workers of Latino descent, often working at below minimum wage? Why? They put up with it, and are mostly happy to have the job. The fact is, many Indians, especially those who are "new" in the country, are happy to do what it takes, at the salary and position that they get, even if it is below market rate. Both sides are at fault, no doubt.

Then, of course, there are those who go out and take risk to do extraordinary things, like starting companies. There is no dearth of famous companies founded by Indians, is there?

Re: Racism in Tech

#166

Post by troyastorino »

cosgroveb wrote: post #150
freemarketteddy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.In fact I would say that statistically Indians who have been educated in India are not good managers period. I am myself an Indian and I have a bachelors degree from an Indian University. In my experience working for corpora…

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects. It's not racism if it's true!

Hypothesizing that a trend could be explained by cultural differences is different than discriminating on race.

Re: Racism in Tech

#167

Post by bluedanieru »

thwest wrote: post #96
wpietri wrote: post #24

For those looking for a more nuanced understanding of this than the eternal American fight about whether "X is/is not racist", go take some of the tests at Harvard's Project Implicit: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/ When I took them, I was pretty confident that I was, as a well-meaning nerd, beyond any sort of racial bias. I was wrong. Although I am deeply opposed to racism consciously, various bits of racial…

I would ask people not to take the test immediately, but rather first spend time on the authors' distinction about implicit racial attitudes. Racial bias in this sense is entirely different than overt racism, but still as important. Admitting that you've unintentionally learned the statistical biases present in our culture is not admitting you're a racist. When you're ok with that statement (which can be difficult gi…

USian

Stop it.

Re: Racism in Tech

#168

Post by bluedanieru »

powertower wrote: post #79

> Especially at a government facility. In the United States. In 2011. In the tech business. Humans have accumulated (recorded) vast sums of knowledge, and have become more efficient at building things using that knowledge, but human nature has not "evolved". The human brain has remained about the same for the last 20,000 years (give or take a few thousand years). There have been no quantum leaps here. We are exactly…

Our DNA is the same. We are better fed and generally healthier (at least since the agricultural revolution), most of us are raised better than your average peasant 1000 years ago, mothers know not to drink during pregnancy (this is a big one, by the way), etc.

Re: Racism in Tech

#169

Post by adrianN »

phillmv wrote: post #43
Causification wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Unless it's supported by a legal framework, racism is a self-defeating phenomenon. Racist individuals deprive themselves of the benefits offered by the group toward which they are racist, therefore making themselves less likely to succeed. If anything, a person or group of people being racist should alert you, the observant seizer of the day, to an under-utilized resource and/or market niche. So long as big b…

>Unless it's supported by a legal framework, racism is a self-defeating phenomenon. It's more complicated than that. Substitute legal framework with 'cultural normative behaviour' and we end up at a different position. I just highly doubt there's a lack of women or black people physically capable of being engineers.

The lack of women or black people in engineering isn't proof for their discrimination though. It could be that they simply choose to pursue different professions because their upbringing is different.
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