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Racism in Tech

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Re: Racism in Tech

#141

Post by ww »

freemarketteddy wrote: post #128
ww wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead po…

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.In fact I would say that statistically Indians who have been educated in India are not good managers period. I am myself an Indian and I have a bachelors degree from an Indian University. In my experience working for corpora…

Well remember I said the managers in these cases are incompetent (pointy haired, Dilbert types). A random person off the street would be better. The tech guy that knows the business and the software and has been working with said software for 10 years would certainly be better.

I've been working around people from India for 17 years now. I've known guys/girls from India that came here in the US in the early 80s. I've been in tech lead positions and have given evaluations for people from India on my team that should have been moved into leadership positions and they've been overlooked. This is how I know first hand that there is some kind of bias in many work settings.

I've seen this in the medical, defense, education, financial, and utility fields on the east coast, mid west, and in the southwest. FWIW I've not seen this at software companies.

Re: Racism in Tech

#142

Post by joebadmo »

dlikhten wrote: post #140
joebadmo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never encountered racism, therefore there is no racism. And anyone who thinks they're being discriminated against is a lazy whiner.

Boo @joebadmo!!! I've seen it, some sexism actually. However those who are sexist/racist are easy to spot, they are just aholes in general. The one I knew was very easily spotted as every female member of the team complained about him in a month, followed by every male member just complaining how much of an ass he was.

I don't even know where to begin.

Almost my entire point was that your own experience is not universal. No one's is.

You admit that you've seen discrimination and that it's easy to spot. Why, then, would you assume that it's not a problem? And why would you assume that all discrimination is easy to spot?

If you've witnessed discrimination, but you're trying to stifle the voices that are trying to raise awareness of their situation, then you're part of the problem.

Re: Racism in Tech

#143

Post by qeorge »

phillmv wrote: post #43
Causification wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Unless it's supported by a legal framework, racism is a self-defeating phenomenon. Racist individuals deprive themselves of the benefits offered by the group toward which they are racist, therefore making themselves less likely to succeed. If anything, a person or group of people being racist should alert you, the observant seizer of the day, to an under-utilized resource and/or market niche. So long as big b…

>Unless it's supported by a legal framework, racism is a self-defeating phenomenon. It's more complicated than that. Substitute legal framework with 'cultural normative behaviour' and we end up at a different position. I just highly doubt there's a lack of women or black people physically capable of being engineers.

I think the GP's point still stands. Smart companies will have an advantage recruiting these engineers, because they have less competition, and so they will win. (Corollary: the quality of the team is the strongest predictor of success).

I agree. Anyone who would hire a worse employee because they don't like the other's {race,color,nationality,gender,sexual preference,...} is an idiot, and I wouldn't bet on their success.

That said, we definitely need some short term solutions too. "Evolution" isn't particularly helpful to those being discriminated against right now.

Re: Racism in Tech

#144

Post by tedunangst »

kiiski wrote: post #127
rdl wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone not understanding NATO phonetic alphabet has no business working in a call center (or using a telephone, in general), even if English is not his or her native language.

Why not? I think you overestimate how common NATO phonetic alphabet is. I, for example, don't know it and I still can use a telephone without problems. (I'm Finnish)

If you're getting paid to communicate with people using the NATO alphabet, you should know the NATO alphabet. (Or the company should hire people who know it. It's not strictly the call workers' fault that they can't communicate.)

Re: Racism in Tech

#145

Post by rohern »

The gist of this whole story is that CNN is a lousy source of information about anything. Most of us have known this for at least five years. Cable journalism is an industry in which a group of people with no specialized knowledge at all, reporters, get to go on TV and pontificate as if things were otherwise. Move on.

Re: Racism in Tech

#146

Post by Macshot »

As a Black developer, from an under privileged urban area, without a degree (but went to college for CS) I can can say that I agree with Arrington. The reason there aren't more minorities heading to the valley is because they aren't exposed to the possibilities. I know out of all the black developers I know I'm one of the few with aspersions of doing my own thing (NoBadGift.com) let alone know that that's an option.

This is not to say that I haven't experienced racism in my career in technology. Shoot I have people turn me away because I went to college at an HBCU (Historically Black College & University). Yet, I don't think that was because I in this industry just those individuals bias and I know if there were more minorities exposed to the idea of being entrepreneurs then there would be far more in the valley.

Don't worry though I hope to be one of those that help with this problem

SN: for anyone who has never experience racism consider yourself lucky. True story: (mind you I am a well established ,for my age, government contractor.) After exceeding all of a clients expectations on a project I later had a co-worker come and tell me how shocked that a black person could code let alone do it well and that he thought I was only on the team as a ploy by the company to diversify. Then expected me to take that as a compliment lol. Now that's only one of many stories i can tell. Just my 2 cent

Re: Racism in Tech

#147

Post by jeffio »

If you look at fortune 500 companies, most are run by tall, old white men over 50. The reality in today's world is that if you're a short black woman (for example), you're up against huge discrimination that runs deep in mainstream society.

I found this article the other day that Female Fortune 500 CEOs were at an "all time high". Female CEOs represent just about 3.6% of Fortune 500 company heads. That's 18, a new record. And it's not a very multicultural bunch: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/26/female-fortune-500-...

The issue is not "crap", it's a very real issue that a lot of people experience every day. Thank-you to Brad Feld for putting the spotlight on this issue into the tech world, at least for a few hours.

Re: Racism in Tech

#148

Post by burgerbrain »

davidw wrote: post #134
Spyro7 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of losing karma, I have to say that I think this entire thread has really gone way too far. Guys, this is HACKER NEWS. I thought we were supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard of conversation over here? Could I just post one thing? http://www.paulgraham.com/randomness.html If you disagree with what someone writes, then you should reply simply and without embellishment. To conclude that someone ha…

I generally believe very much in giving people the benefit of the doubt, and in not overreacting, and so on. The world benefits greatly from not taking offense at the drop of a hat. However, there are times when one's blood boils for a reason. I reread this a few hours after my initial comments and... yep, I'm still angered when I read that those who call out someone for being racist are "backwards" and the equivalen…

The insistence on misrepresenting other peoples comments here is simply stunning.

Re: Racism in Tech

#149

Post by virmundi »

jeffio wrote: post #147

If you look at fortune 500 companies, most are run by tall, old white men over 50. The reality in today's world is that if you're a short black woman (for example), you're up against huge discrimination that runs deep in mainstream society. I found this article the other day that Female Fortune 500 CEOs were at an "all time high". Female CEOs represent just about 3.6% of Fortune 500 company heads. That's 18, a new re…

Not to exclude racism from the picture, but look at the requirements profferred for CEO: experience in the field, wisdom and experience in a management position. Given this it makes sense that many CEOs would be white males in their 50s. They have experience in the field. They should have gotten wise (though, that's anybody's guess). They would have had management experience during their 30s and 40s. So the question is how many, as you said, short black women were looking to be CEOs of a F500 company 30 years ago when they were in their 20s? Probably not that many. Given that there are only a tiny number of F500 CEO positions (500 or so), that small initial population is competing with a large pool of white men, men in general and taller, non black women.

It will be interesting to look at CEO ratios in 20-30 years. That's about the time you'll start seeing women (more in the work force now then every, especially better educated) start to have the paper credentials to fill those roles.

Re: Racism in Tech

#150

Post by cosgroveb »

freemarketteddy wrote: post #128
ww wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The racism that I've come in contact with (in corporate settings at least) is towards people from India. Not people born here and of Indian descent, but people from India with Indian culture. It would probably be better to call it "culturism" or bias against a culture instead of racism. When you go on a contract and you see 20 employees 50-80% of them being from India and 0% of them in management or even team lead po…

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.In fact I would say that statistically Indians who have been educated in India are not good managers period. I am myself an Indian and I have a bachelors degree from an Indian University. In my experience working for corpora…

Well I think you're right...but this "culturism" that you talk about has something to do with the fact that Indians from India are not inherently very good at managing people or software projects.

It's not racism if it's true!

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