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Even your boss wants to quit

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Re: Even your boss wants to quit

#71

Post by at-fates-hands »

fnbr wrote: post #9
willcipriano wrote: post #4

I wouldn't want my bosses job. I don't think it pays all that much more than mine but it requires a lot of days full of meetings and late nights. I may even do better on a hourly basis. I think some people get wrapped up in the headline salary number (XXX,XXX per year, that's a lot of money!) and never break it down into a hourly number to see if it's actually a better deal.

100%. In big tech, as you get more senior, the job becomes miserable. I wouldn’t want to be a Director, or even a Senior Staff engineer. At a certain point you sacrifice your sanity to be in that many meetings.

I spent some time in middle management (first as a lead, then as a manager of a small team of devs) and I refuse to do that again. You're 100% right, as you move up, it gets more miserable. As a lead, I was constantly doing adult daycare and counseling for the developers. At the same time, upper management was constantly breathing down my back to improve my teams analytics and performance - regardless of how well the team was doing.

The worst part of the two gigs I had was the director who was in the position above me? Not moving. In both companies. I spent almost six years between two companies trying to find a way out of middle management. I finally realized a lot of companies structure gets flat very quickly because a lot of the upper level executives are not moving, or not getting promoted, so then you have another set of issues you're dealing with.

Its just not worth it unless you can get in and get out of middle management in less than 2 years.

Re: Even your boss wants to quit

#72

Post by Jistern »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #68
zeroonetwothree wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grass is greener etc. Other peoples situations always seem better/easier. We don’t have enough data and are just too poor at objective evaluation.

>> Grass is greener etc. This is so true. After spending a decade in software development, I'm finally staying put where I am. So many times as a developer you hate something about your job. So you go out and interview, build some stuff for show on GitHub, and then finally land that job that's going to take away all your worries and grievances you have with your current employer. Only to find out all you did was swap…

As the adage goes, "Happiness is not having what you want, but wanting what you have"

Re: Even your boss wants to quit

#73

Post by zo1 »

WJW wrote: post #10
pixel_tracing wrote: post #2

As an executive you’re in a position to influence and make changes for folks below you, I guess they really don’t give a shit. Self > team I suppose

The older I get, the more I realize that middle managers (and even C-suite executives) are even more limited in what they can achieve than individual contributors. They have no way to do anything themselves and all "initiatives" they start inevitably get stuck in endless meetings and planning sessions with people that are very invested in status quo. Imagine how much harder the chinese telephone game gets if some peo…

Very true. Just a few months ago I realized I couldn't just flat out order dual 4k screens for my team despite being the one that approves expenses. It's not top-down tyranny. Its tyranny of the norm and the molasses that it brings. Being out of the norm is hard and you have to doubly prove yourself at every step because the status quo has an aura of just being the "right thing".

Re: Even your boss wants to quit

#74

Post by wccrawford »

jayroh wrote: post #19
willcipriano wrote: post #4

I wouldn't want my bosses job. I don't think it pays all that much more than mine but it requires a lot of days full of meetings and late nights. I may even do better on a hourly basis. I think some people get wrapped up in the headline salary number (XXX,XXX per year, that's a lot of money!) and never break it down into a hourly number to see if it's actually a better deal.

It's funny how fast and profoundly "perspective" will hit you. When I was a young programmer I always dreamed of that promotion and comp adjustment. Constantly looking for that next step. That's not inherently bad, per se, but once you reach a particular place you come to find out what the commensurate responsibility looks like. Sometimes -- dare I say, often? -- it's just not fun. That's what they pay you for, thoug…

I caught this perspective early, and would be very clear in interviews that I didn't ever want to be a manager. I had a lot of interviewers ask, "Don't you have any ambition?"

My answer was always that I did, I got to where I wanted to be, and I intend to stay there. I'm a programmer. I program. Ambition realized.

And with the money that programmers make, it seems even more ridiculous to suggest that I had no ambition while applying for a job as "senior developer" or "lead developer".

Re: Even your boss wants to quit

#75

Post by daxfohl »

hansword wrote: post #57

> What we found was that the majority [of C-suite executives] want to do something about it, but they just haven't done something about it I literally laughed out loud. This is how it is, this is always how it is. LOL

I have to give them benefit of the doubt. How many things are on my own plate that I haven't done anything about yet? A lot.

Re: Even your boss wants to quit

#76

Post by angarg12 »

My org has seen significant attrition at all levels, including mid+ management. My take is much simpler: just like us IC folks, managers jump ship for better opportunities, promotions, and raises.

I'm not making this up. I've heard leaders comment in private about how their compensation has dipped due to the recent stock market crash. Since the higher you go in the chain, the biggest the share of your comp is in stocks, it's very attractive to change employment during a market dip. Sure it's risky, but the payoff is big.

Re: Even your boss wants to quit

#77

Post by phil21 »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #39
jayroh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how fast and profoundly "perspective" will hit you. When I was a young programmer I always dreamed of that promotion and comp adjustment. Constantly looking for that next step. That's not inherently bad, per se, but once you reach a particular place you come to find out what the commensurate responsibility looks like. Sometimes -- dare I say, often? -- it's just not fun. That's what they pay you for, thoug…

Grass is greener etc. Other peoples situations always seem better/easier. We don’t have enough data and are just too poor at objective evaluation.

The grass is never greener, it's just a different shade of brown.

Re: Even your boss wants to quit

#78

Post by daxfohl »

maxfurman wrote: post #36

Funny to see this today - my own boss resigned last month and we've been interviewing for his replacement. I haven't decided whether or not to apply for his position; I don't want all of his responsibilities but I do want to keep the autonomy that I've gained since he left.

Same. (Actually I'm in the really weird position of: manager quit, M2 out with covid, M3 paternity. M4 is even on vacation this week). I half wonder if forcing every manager to take a three month vacation each year would lead to an increase in productivity.

Re: Even your boss wants to quit

#80

Post by RemoteIsHeaven »

karaterobot wrote: post #16
fnbr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100%. In big tech, as you get more senior, the job becomes miserable. I wouldn’t want to be a Director, or even a Senior Staff engineer. At a certain point you sacrifice your sanity to be in that many meetings.

My career trajectory was Dev -> Senior -> Lead -> Director -> Senior. I left a company and purposefully looked for my next job further down the ladder, after having profound burnout that made me question whether I wanted to keep working in the industry at all. I decided I like making software, I just didn't like the amount of stress, anxiety, uncertainty, politics, and bickering I was experiencing. In my experience,…

> My career trajectory was Dev -> Senior -> Lead -> Director -> Senior. I left a company and purposefully looked for my next job further down the ladder, after having profound burnout that made me question whether I wanted to keep working in the industry at all

Any chance you had terrible, even substandard leadership where you were Director (assuming that's where you had the profound burnout) and you would absolutely have loved it otherwise?

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