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Sex is going out of fashion?

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Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#651
post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the only way out on a local, personal level, since that's all we have much control over. But how is it not the app's fault? When Twitter and Facebook create social dynamics that encourage outrage and division, I blame them (or at least I blame the incentives and systems that cause them to do this). Ditto for the impact that these dating apps are having.

> But how is it not the app's fault? How is it? Like, okay, what's the alternative? I genuinely don't understand the criticism beyond "well, self-described low-status men are getting passed over because people have options ." Should they not be getting passed over? Should people be taking one for the team for these self-described low-status men and dating them despite themselves? There have always been lonely people,…

The alternative is the way things were 15 years ago, where people found mates via their physical networks, work, family, hobbies, religion, and day to day life.

The criticism is similar in nature to the criticism of Twitter and Facebook. These apps play to and encourage the worst side of humans in the way that their social dynamics are designed, which distorts relations between people for the worse.

In the case of dating apps, it's because the "first meeting" is viewing someone's curated digital profile instead of getting to know their full self in the real world, they strongly encourage selection based on trivialities like height, hip to waist ratio, income and other signals. You also encourage the same narcissistic performance games that Instagram encourages. It's also the sheer deluge of profiles. Like, our dopamine system isn't designed for that, and nor is it a fully free choice when the app has exploited that evolved system to hook users. And what's going to be the impact of designing a system that makes it easy for people to self select into opposing political tribes?

Of course most of this stuff happened to an extent 15 years ago too. But as with Facebook and their tendency to stoke outrage and division, the problem is how the app has turbocharged our worse tendencies while also creating dilemma like incentives that make it tricky to opt out from.

My point about low status men is that they often aren't bad mates. They're low status through the prism of hyper gamified dating apps that magnify the importance of trivialities. There's no question that there's people who've had it worse in this regard in the pre-dating app era (various low-caste/untouchables types in different societies), my point isn't that we are at rock bottom, just that dating apps are a pretty large step in the wrong direction.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#652
post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But how is it not the app's fault? How is it? Like, okay, what's the alternative? I genuinely don't understand the criticism beyond "well, self-described low-status men are getting passed over because people have options ." Should they not be getting passed over? Should people be taking one for the team for these self-described low-status men and dating them despite themselves? There have always been lonely people,…

The alternative is the way things were 15 years ago, where people found mates via their physical networks, work, family, hobbies, religion, and day to day life. The criticism is similar in nature to the criticism of Twitter and Facebook. These apps play to and encourage the worst side of humans in the way that their social dynamics are designed, which distorts relations between people for the worse. In the case of da…

I think I notionally agree with a lot of what you're saying. Where I think we disagree--and this is me maybe not being the most optimistic person in the universe--is in the alternative. I think the fracturing we are seeing right now doesn't mean the alternative is "find mates at work and through other physical networks". I think it's "don't find anybody."

To that end, I think these are awful, but perhaps not the darkest timeline.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#653

Despite all others blaming it on entertainment, porn, alcohol, working etc, I blame online dating. The bar and amount of work needed to get into relationship (I'm not into casual sex) is just too high for great amount of people.

If you're a man and you don't have self esteem issues trying online dating is an excellent way to develop them. I tried it for maybe half a year. I'm decent looking, I have a good career, I'm tall enough that I get through most of the filters a lot of women put on height, I put effort into my profile and pictures. After all that I was ecstatic if I got even one match a week (and this was across three different apps).…

> Outside of online dating where are you even supposed to meet women now? I see women saying all the time they don't want to be approached in public.

I would be careful with letting a few anecdotes from a minority of women drive your behavior so much. There's nothing wrong with approaching people in public. Especially if you go to eg a bar, many women will be open to having conversations. I met my current partner this very way.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it hardly takes more than 2-3 seconds to swipe, and there were so few matches you couldn't probably waste too much time on handling them, it looks like about 5 hours of work gets you 1 date. I think it's more than OK. A date itself takes more time and more money. This is efficient.

In the worked example 16561 swipes over four months resulted in 3 dates that went nowhere for a slightly above average male.

Went nowhere in the sense: did not result in sex? Then it's certainly something the guy was doing wrong, the girls are going for Tinder dates specifically with that goal. The OP said they they "did not result in anything serious", so i assumed it meant "no relationship", but this is simply not what Tinder is for. Yes i know a lady who built relationship from Tinder, but she had to do about 500 dates over 3 years go be able to pick the right guy, it was exhausting and not an efficient way to do it for sure.

Spending 15 hours to get 3 hookups is good. One could do more swipes to get more, spending proportionally more time, if the city they live in is good enough (and yes Tinder is a numbers game so it works for guys only in big cities)

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#655
post #419

What a premise. I am not buying it. To those struggling with online dating: stop and get out in the real world. It's easier, trust me. Don't believe the people who are trying to tell you otherwise. Not only you don't need these apps, they are likely the reason you're not getting much sex. Recently, I tried watching How I met your father. Felt like an ad for a certain online dating service. It was absolutely horrible…

Couldn't agree more on the "go into the real world" point. It's insane to me, I can be on a dating app swiping through tens or even hundreds of profiles and never get a match. Yet I'm almost guaranteed that if I try to strike up a conversation a couple of times out & about, it only takes me a handful to get to a compelling interaction.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, with the wars, global warming and everything else that's happening right now, My thinking is there will always be something. Our parents could have said the same thing about Vietnam and the Cold War. My litmus test is: "is this issue affecting you". Global warming and wars may make you anxious when reading the news, but does it _actually_ affect your life.

You can't just dismiss global events with long term consequences because they don't appear to have an immediate and direct impact on your life.

Disagree. I've found living this way is actually quite nice. What am I going to do about these "global events" anyway? I can't impact them so I don't see why I should worry about them. I'll just deal with their downstream impact and let others worry about the events themselves.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were some really interesting analyses presented by a dating app several years ago (I don't remember which; they had a blog and I'm worried it's now buried outside of Google's apparent time window). One of the most interesting things was that there was a mismatch between men and women in interest versus openness and confidence. I don't remember the details, but I think the problem was something like women were m…

Maybe okcupid’s blogs by Christian Rudder? Probably only available on Archive.org

I think that might have been it; it's the sort of thing that would be posted there, but I can't find what I'm thinking of in the places I've looked.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#658

Wonder if this is related to the lack of personal relationships in general, especially friendships. There is an epidemic of loneliness in the world. So many ways to communicate and all we can do is post memes and upvote influencers. I am happily married but have zero friends. I met my wife through my friend group in college. If I heaven forbid got a divorce tomorrow, not sure where I would meet someone new. Guess I w…

We're nineteen years into the project of digitally reifying human relationships - one that's snowballing into an unmitigated catastrophe. Social media circa 2003 began as a codification of existing human relationships. One's first digital friends records generally were a product of social relations, but as the marginal cost of digital reproduction tends toward zero, so did the cost of digital records of friendship un…

"The digitization of friendship as a signifier of the friendship replaced the latter forming a simulacrum - the signifier replaced the signified". We've moved our lives onchain and exchanged real connections for a social media nft.

Re: Sex is going out of fashion?

#660
post #496
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony here is that you are responding to someone lamenting puritanical thought with a puritanical post.

No. What is ironic is thinking being against porn is puritanical. It's not all black and white. Like many people outside of the US, I am as far from puritanism as possible, yet I maintain that porn is a cancer. We should have more sex instead. The hippies were onto something.

It is in fact possible to be further from puritanism, because you could not be against porn. There's nothing wrong with sex and there's nothing wrong with filming it or otherwise making money off of it.
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