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Stolperstein

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181–187 of 187 posts

Re: Stolperstein

#181
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my two cent counter-argument. Captialism is the biggest ruthless killing machine, whatever form it takes: nazism (Hitler was put to power by German industry/bourgeoisie), fascism (Mussolini advocated for State/Capital unification under "corporatism"), State capitalism (USSR was not very different from a people's perspective, with salaried work and gulags and political police), or ordinary liberalism (French re…

Wait, you’re lumping the USSR into “crimes of capitalism”.

As another commenter has pointed out, from a people's perspective, if you leave propaganda aside, there was really not drastic difference between USSR and capitalist countries. Depending on the local implementation, you may have had more or less women's rights or gay rights, or more or less free healthcare, but at the end of the day ordinary people are still destroying their bodies working in fields and factories all day long and going hungry at times while an enlightened elite will drown in luxury, and if those people dare question the status quo the police or secret political police will imprison, torture, or assassinate them.

Apart from the specific forms they take, there's not much difference between working life and political repression under USSR, and that under USA. For more reading on KGB-like political repression in the USA, i recommend to check out COINTELPRO. For more reading on how USSR was not communist, i recommend to read Emma Goldman's fantastic accounts of her time in Russia and her disillusions with the Bolsheviks, one of which is very brief entitled "There is no communism in Russia": https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-there-i...

TLDR: In USSR there was no abolition of property to develop the commons. There was seizure of some forms of private property to become State property instead.

Re: Stolperstein

#182
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same thing over the border in Brno, Czech Republic. Didn't really notice them for so long, until suddenly I stopped to read one and realised they're all over the place. I always stop to check them now. Additionally I have similar feelings about the atrocities committed by the UK. To me it feels so unambiguously right to officially acknowledge and apologise that our ancestors did pretty heinous shit (up to…

I don't know why you think it is unambiguosuly right to apologize for past crimes. My Finnish friend is super into history and he basically remembers the events of history by it's relative position in time to a European war. There were so many horrific wars. The stories of past highlight the worst parts of human nature, but many people got by in love without murdering the locals next door. We should turn away from ev…

>Studying that sh*t and mulling it over in apology for crimes one never did is dangerous, we should move towards loving the good things done, past and future.

This shows a severe lack of empathy. Put yourself in the shoes of a people whose immediate relatives and ancestors were annihilated by the same social order currently running the country. You might see a use for apologies.

Re: Stolperstein

#183
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Polish Jews were targeted as Jews, but non-Jewish Poles were not targeted in the same way (i.e., the Germans were brutal occupiers, but Catholic Poles were not targeted for extermination). What are you talking about? The Nazis absolutely intended to exterminate Catholic Poles (and other Slavs). Murdering Jews was higher priority, but had the Nazis won there wouldn't be too many Slavs around in Eastern Europe today.…

> What are you talking about? The fact that the Nazis attempted to exterminate the Jews in Poland, and almost succeeded. They killed 90% of the Jewish population. There were horrific plans for most of the Slavic population of Eastern Europe for after the war (Generalplan Ost, which you've linked to), but they were never put into operation. Catholic Poles were not subject to anything near the level of persecution as J…

This doesn’t change the fact that Russians and Germans were allies, started the war together, and German tanks all ran on Russian fuel. Exactly how it was beneficial for them to become allies is secondary.

Re: Stolperstein

#184
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise. I get very frustrated by all the people who will refuse to acknowledge that our ancestors did some atrocious things to people. People will just through some extrodinary hoops to rationalise why it either wasn't so terrible, or it was somehow justified in a way that other people's atrocities were not.

Sorry if it's not clear, I'm a UK national. And while it's true that we shouldn't really distinguish between atrocities (after all, they're all bad), I think being from the UK you're always going to feel a bit more connected to or somehow complicit in things that were done during the days of the British Empire even if you weren't yet born when they happened. Sort of a lingering, inherited shame. If that makes sense :…

[deleted]

Re: Stolperstein

#185
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, you’re lumping the USSR into “crimes of capitalism”.

As another commenter has pointed out, from a people's perspective, if you leave propaganda aside, there was really not drastic difference between USSR and capitalist countries. Depending on the local implementation, you may have had more or less women's rights or gay rights, or more or less free healthcare, but at the end of the day ordinary people are still destroying their bodies working in fields and factories all…

There was no free market, thus the USSR was not capitalist.

I can't believe I'm even arguing this point. It seems like some weird attempt to rewrite history with a narrative "if something went wrong with communism, its capitalisms fault".

No, the USSR collectivized the entire country, everything was state owned, the state determined what was produced (to the point of murdering citizens who tried to stop them). It was as close to communism as anyone has every gotten and it failed miserably.

Re: Stolperstein

#186
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another commenter has pointed out, from a people's perspective, if you leave propaganda aside, there was really not drastic difference between USSR and capitalist countries. Depending on the local implementation, you may have had more or less women's rights or gay rights, or more or less free healthcare, but at the end of the day ordinary people are still destroying their bodies working in fields and factories all…

There was no free market , thus the USSR was not capitalist. I can't believe I'm even arguing this point. It seems like some weird attempt to rewrite history with a narrative "if something went wrong with communism, its capitalisms fault". No, the USSR collectivized the entire country, everything was state owned, the state determined what was produced (to the point of murdering citizens who tried to stop them). It wa…

> There was no free market, thus the USSR was not capitalist.

Of course there was a free market, at least after the NEP was implemented in 1921. Yes there were taxes, but in the USA too, that doesn't make USSR non-capitalist. It's like if you were to say 2022 China is not capitalist for some reasons: yes it has "communist" in the name, and no billionaires are not 100% above the law (contrary to the USA) but there is still money, class, property, gentrification, and everything else that defines capitalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Economic_Policy

> I can't believe I'm even arguing this point. It seems like some weird attempt to rewrite history with a narrative "if something went wrong with communism, its capitalisms fault".

Well if you can't believe it, you probably rarely spoke with anarchists. That's the main historical disagreement between anarchists (and anti-authoritarian marxists who are a tiny minority but still exist) and marxist-leninists. The latter claim the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is the road to communism by seizing everything that defines capitalism (State, police, prisons, factories) and placing it under proletarian State governance, while the former consider it's impossible to build communism (freedom and equality for all) with the exploitative tools of capitalism.

I agree with you there's some history rewriting which took place, but it took place about a century ago and it was done by the bolsheviks who erased the memory of the militants who drove the revolution in early 1917 before they seized State power in October and massacred all who disagreed. They were a well-armed minority party who seized State power and applied a dictatorship. They rewrote history and called "counter-revolutionaries" everyone who disagreed, including proper communists who wanted all power to the people. The memories of Emma Goldman, Nestor Makhno, or Volin are really useful to understand the political context of that time, and whatever happened when Lenin and Trotsky (who was chief of the Red Army at that time) had the Communes of Cronstadt and Ukraine massacred in blood.

> No, the USSR collectivized the entire country

That's doubly false. First, social status and private property were never really abolished in the USSR (or rather, were reestablished shortly after being abolished), so you had luxury homes for the cadre of the Party and miserable living conditions for ordinary people. Second, the State nationalized everything, which has nothing to do with collectivization: the Bolsheviks actively repressed the local communities who tried to organize collectivization of land/resources (see also Cronstadt/Makhnovtchina i mentioned earlier).

Maybe give the Emma Goldman link i posted earlier a read? It's really short and you may learn a thing or two about history of that time and place. She's in a unique position because she was an ardent proponent of the 1917 revolution when she was in the USA, but when she was imprisoned and deported from the USA for anti-militarist propaganda, she was confronted with the reality of life under Bolshevik rule and how her anarchist comrades were hunted down by the regime. Her autobiography is a great read, but even the shorter pamphlets are informative.

Re: Stolperstein

#187
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are you talking about? The fact that the Nazis attempted to exterminate the Jews in Poland, and almost succeeded. They killed 90% of the Jewish population. There were horrific plans for most of the Slavic population of Eastern Europe for after the war (Generalplan Ost, which you've linked to), but they were never put into operation. Catholic Poles were not subject to anything near the level of persecution as J…

This doesn’t change the fact that Russians and Germans were allies, started the war together, and German tanks all ran on Russian fuel. Exactly how it was beneficial for them to become allies is secondary.

The Soviet Union did not start the war, and was not allied with Germany.

Germany quite clearly started the war with its invasion of Poland, and without that decision, there would have been no war.

They two countries had a non-aggression pact, and an agreement not to interfere with each other's spheres of influence. The Soviets knew full well that the Germans planned to invade the USSR, and the point of the non-aggression pact was to delay that invasion until the Red Army was capable of fighting a war.

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