Stolperstein • Hacker News Board

Re: Stolperstein

#131

Post by refurb » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:09 PM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #98

Freak_NL wrote: post #76

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

Here's my two cent counter-argument. Captialism is the biggest ruthless killing machine, whatever form it takes: nazism (Hitler was put to power by German industry/bourgeoisie), fascism (Mussolini advocated for State/Capital unification under "corporatism"), State capitalism (USSR was not very different from a people's perspective, with salaried work and gulags and political police), or ordinary liberalism (French re…

Wait, you’re lumping the USSR into “crimes of capitalism”.

Re: Stolperstein

#132

Post by refurb » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

Klaster_1 wrote: post #46

uniqueuid wrote: post #3

It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. The stories on them, told in a brief phrase, are mostly heartbreaking, sometimes uplifting, always relevant. "Executed for making fun of the Führer", "Deported and gassed for hiding Jewish neighbors", "Survived concentration camp but parents, siblings and rel…

The idea to put a bit more info about the person was brilliant, even a single sentence makes you relate more. There is a similar project in Russia called The Last Address [1], I see these a lot (but probably not enough) in the Saint-Petersburg historical center, and although being a similar age and area of expertise to lots of victims helps, even a brief summary of their "wrongdoings" would go a long way enriching th…

The film Shoah always struck me for similar reasons

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoah_(film)

They did many of these interviews in the 70’s so a little more than 30 years after the Holocaust.

Seeing them interview some farmer who was 20 at the time and lived near the village of Auschwitz and remembers seeing the trains going in full of people and coming out empty really hits home as it all happened in the midst of people just living their lives.

Re: Stolperstein

#133

Post by fs111 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:16 PM UTC

Freak_NL wrote: post #76

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

I live in such a house. All houses in my street have them. Some have one or two, others have 10+. When we moved here I attended a ceremony across the street when they were putting new ones. During special events throughout the year people are cleaning them, put candles and flowers to remember. It think it is an excellent way to remember and understand our past.

Re: Stolperstein

#134

Post by shark1 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:19 PM UTC

This made me think:

  "Unlike many other German cities, the city council of Munich in 2004 rejected the installation of Stolpersteine on public property, following objections raised by Munich's Jewish community... She objected to the idea that the names of murdered Jews be inserted in the pavement, where people might accidentally step on them.

  In other cities, permission for the project was preceded by long, sometimes emotional discussions. In Krefeld, the vice-chairman of the Jewish community, Michael Gilad, said that Demnig's memorials reminded him of how the Nazis had used Jewish gravestones as slabs for sidewalks.

  Polish Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) has expressed reservations towards to project, noting that the form of the memorial, particularly its location on regular sidewalks, which are regularly stomped over by passersby, is not respectful. Another criticism from IPN has concerned inadequate level of detail provided on Stolpersteine, such as lack of context clarifying that most of the perpetrators of the Holocaust were Germans, and not Poles. IPN officials have repeatedly suggested that instead of Stolpersteine, the more respectful, informative and traditional form of remembrance that the IPN is willing to support."

Re: Stolperstein

#135

Post by smcl » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:26 PM UTC

noneeeed wrote: post #78

smcl wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same thing over the border in Brno, Czech Republic. Didn't really notice them for so long, until suddenly I stopped to read one and realised they're all over the place. I always stop to check them now. Additionally I have similar feelings about the atrocities committed by the UK. To me it feels so unambiguously right to officially acknowledge and apologise that our ancestors did pretty heinous shit (up to…

Likewise. I get very frustrated by all the people who will refuse to acknowledge that our ancestors did some atrocious things to people. People will just through some extrodinary hoops to rationalise why it either wasn't so terrible, or it was somehow justified in a way that other people's atrocities were not.

Sorry if it's not clear, I'm a UK national. And while it's true that we shouldn't really distinguish between atrocities (after all, they're all bad), I think being from the UK you're always going to feel a bit more connected to or somehow complicit in things that were done during the days of the British Empire even if you weren't yet born when they happened.

Sort of a lingering, inherited shame. If that makes sense :)

Re: Stolperstein

#136

Post by cs137 » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:27 PM UTC

edanm wrote: post #130

cs137 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. In fact, most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. Unfortunately, there is a degree to which antisemitism is disguised behind disproportionate criticism of Israel and the Israeli people, and it's impossible to know, at an individual level, why people hold their opinions. Does Israel's government do awful things for questionable reasons (like most, if not all, national govern…

Agree with most of your post, but did want to point out one thing: >[...] most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. While that certainly might be true wherever you live, note that the majority of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel, and at least some fairly large portion of that population does support Israel's policies and recent actions. (I assume we're talking about…

The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close.

As for Israelis and support for their government, that is... complicated. Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "innately" warlike or antisemitic (I don't think that's true) but because the states in the region are deeply corrupt, failing states that will (as Russia has done) create an external enemy and launch a war to distract their own people from domestic issues.

The Israeli state is deeply problematic, corrupted by capitalism and some amount of racism (as almost all Western states are). It also has a job that is tough as hell: protecting a vulnerable minority group from millions who would murder them. The middle-of-the-road Israeli understands the need to protect themselves, but isn't a huge fan of the settlements (if he thinks about them at all) and certainly would love to see peace in the region.

Re: Stolperstein

#137

Post by freemint » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:35 PM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #98

Freak_NL wrote: post #76

I'll preface this by stating that this is probably not a popular opinion. Notwithstanding the ideals behind the Stolpersteine, they are not exclusively a positive influence. The problem lies in one of the defining characteristics of this project: the stones are placed in front of the houses where the Jewish victims who got deported and executed lived. This means that if you happen to live in a house tenanted by these…

Here's my two cent counter-argument. Captialism is the biggest ruthless killing machine, whatever form it takes: nazism (Hitler was put to power by German industry/bourgeoisie), fascism (Mussolini advocated for State/Capital unification under "corporatism"), State capitalism (USSR was not very different from a people's perspective, with salaried work and gulags and political police), or ordinary liberalism (French re…

Please clarify what you mean by capitalism. I have a hard time following that part of your statement.

Re: Stolperstein

#138

Post by kappuchino » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:39 PM UTC

rainworld wrote: post #129

Quoted post unavailable.

Question: Would you be so kind an elaborate what you mean by your comment regarding the Stolpersteine that his thread is about? I personally find your comment ambigous at best and berating at worst. But what do I know.

Re: Stolperstein

#139

Post by 9dev » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:42 PM UTC

gpjanik wrote: post #118

Someone wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell, it doesn’t mention nationalities at all. For example, it doesn’t mention Germans, either. If so, why would it have to mention Poles?

It does mention Jews, Sinti and Romas. It doesn't mention Germans because it was Germans who were the perpetrators and were not targetted based on their ethnicity. Meanwhile being Polish (it's an ethnic group, not a nationality - nationality was obviously German in this context) was, same as for the aforementioned ethnicities, a condition that could get someone killed.

Well, but Germans were most definitely targeted: The disabled, for example, the homosexuals, the homeless, the mentally sick, the vocal critics… This is not to say Germans were not the perpetrators, but that they weren’t targeted is factually wrong.

Edit: I’m sorry, I just read your comment again, and realised I misunderstood. I still feel those marginalised groups get overlooked often; the Nazis didn’t specifically select for Germans, but for „pure“ aryans, which excluded lots of different groups.

Re: Stolperstein

#140

Post by photochemsyn » Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

jemen wrote: post #108

uniqueuid wrote: post #3

It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. The stories on them, told in a brief phrase, are mostly heartbreaking, sometimes uplifting, always relevant. "Executed for making fun of the Führer", "Deported and gassed for hiding Jewish neighbors", "Survived concentration camp but parents, siblings and rel…

> It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. I very much believe that this is the intention, but does it actually though? Oppressive country frequently brings up the past as a safe way to legitimize the present. Russia seems to have had an increase in this in recent years as it now started a war in Eu…

It's important to note that elements in Ukraine since 2014 pushed a series of oppressive legal restrictions on the Russian-speaking segment of the population that were designed to push that entire group into second-class citizen status.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-langua...

> (2019) "The law, which obliges all citizens to know the Ukrainian language and makes it a mandatory requirement for civil servants, soldiers, doctors, and teachers, was championed by outgoing President Petro Poroshenko."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/21/ukraine-bans-s...

> (2015) "Dunja Mijatović, the representative for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe on freedom of the media, said the “broadly and vaguely defined language” in the anti-communist law “could easily lead to suppression of political, provocative and critical speech, especially in the media”. The US Holocaust Memorial Museum also condemned the independence-fighter legislation."

Imagine, for comparison, if a right-wing government in Washington tried to make all Spanish-speaking U.S. citizens second-class citizens, while incorporating the KKK into the military forces of the United States, as Ukraine did with the Nazi revivalist group Azov Battalion? These are the kind of actions that led to the rise of Russian separatist movements in eastern Ukraine and Crimea, and which Putin ultimately used as part of his political justification for the invasion of Ukraine.

The situation is now so completely embittered that it's hard to see a resolution where the Russian-speaking population in eastern Ukraine and Crimea would ever agree to exist under the control of a western Ukrainian government.