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Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

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Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#681
post #326

POST THE SALARY. Senior people are senior because of their work experience, which they gain from steady employment. Almost by definition you are looking to entice busy, employed people away from their current jobs. They don’t have the time or inclination to trawl through job ad after job ad. Where your competition will ask for 15 years of experience and then only after hours of calls and meetings reluctantly make an…

I've tried to advocate for this at my organization and been told that we don't want people primarily motivated by money...

But >90% of people are primarily motivated by money even if they overtly claim not to be.

If you are ok passing 90% of qualified people that could do the job you need done then you have, of course, the right to do that, but don't complain that you have trouble attracting senior talent.

I don't even begin reading an ad that doesn't post salary and I don't really need any more money. Just a force of habit.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> perhaps pay people to complete the assignments. Assuming this is legal at all according to current employment contracts, it's a huge pain for the new employer's payroll and more stuff to keep track for the employee's income tax.

>Assuming this is legal at all according to current employment contracts, it's a huge pain for the new employer's payroll and more stuff to keep track for the employee's income tax. Is it actually? I run a small business, and have trialled people a few times. I normally just transfer them the $x and report it as a business expense, same as you'd do with a contractor. Maybe it's not technically 100% compliant, but I'd…

Disclaimer: I'm not a tax consultant, check with your accountant

If they don't have an ABN, they'll need to give you "Statement by a Supplier" [1], otherwise you're required to withhold tax at the top marginal rate.

[1] https://www.ato.gov.au/forms/statement-by-a-supplier-not-quo...

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#683
post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

"The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids". - or maybe they're saying "Yes" to someone who works from home and will do it while being paid by their current employer? ;). Which could mean (a) their current employer has mistreated them and "deserves" this to a certain extent, or (b) they'll do the same kind of thing and other naughty things on work time, if they get the job?

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a way of setting up a 401(K), that funds a corporation. Kind of a pain in the butt, and not many accountants know of it. There's a lot of fairly strict rules. You can't paint outside the lines. There's a company that specializes in this kind of thing. I don't really want to go into detail, here, but feel free to get in touch (my HN ID has contact info).

Ah, thanks, that helped locate some relevant search results! For those following along at home, the accounting term seems to be [[ Rollovers as Business Startups (ROBS) ]]. The IRS website has some unusually direct guidance[1][2] on tax compliance risks associated with ROBS. [1] https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/rollovers-as-business-s... [2] https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/robs_guidelines.pdf

First I've heard of ROBS, thanks for posting. I would have assumed OP was talking about a Self Directed IRA, which is an interesting account that can do a lot more than hold securities. From my understanding your IRA can at that point own an LLC which then might hold other assets like actual real-estate.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#685
The problem for me is not that I am being asked to do take home work - the issue is that I do not know how engaged the employer is. I have done the work and been ghosted. Hell - I have done the work and received an offer but no one ever talked about my solution. I also have had the other end of the spectrum- interviews that ask me to correct production code - because they can not solve it.

Maybe the answer is to pay me for my time at a consulting rate.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#686

I usually get offers on the spot within the hour of "just talking shop" with the manager and the most senor technical person on the team. Why would I waste a day with your homework and class presentation only to be offered half of what I make now? You are filtering for desperate bottom feeders, and that is all you're gonna get.

Winner!

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#687
post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who teaches CS at a reputable university, I can state with certainty that we graduate a lot of students who have no clue how to code. As someone who used to do hiring for a small company, I can state that a lot of people who have degrees have no clue how to code. Until our field gets the equivalent of a bar exam or NBME, each employer has to evaluate candidates on their own.

>a lot of people who have degrees have no clue how to code I don't understand how this is possible. I know CS != coding, but every CS degree syllabus I've looked at does involve plenty of programming classes, practical programming projects, etc. How is it possible to graduate from that without being reasonably comfortable writing non-trivial stuff in a couple of major languages?

It works like this:

Step 1. The academics are themselves not that good at coding or teaching, and/or aren't interested in them. This might sound contradictory for a CS course, but at my university (as an example) the CS dept was run by a guy whose actual background was in mathematics. He loved hiring graph theory researchers and didn't like hiring people who knew programming.

Step 2. They try to teach programming to a class of newbies, but fail miserably because teaching programming is hard.

Step 3. They find ways to cover up the fact that nobody is learning to code properly. This can take many forms. At my university (a supposedly 'elite' British uni) they had evolved at least six or seven different tricks for this.

Step 4. Because nobody seems to be accountable for anything and the whole academic hierarchy is in on the scam, nothing gets fixed. Students who complain that they aren't being taught properly are simply punished with low grades. Because grades aren't connected to anything real or objective, there is no recourse.

A few of the tricks they used to cover up the lack of learning:

• Programming assignments that had almost all points allocated to the associated English-language "report", not code. As a consequence marks were arbitrary and depended mostly on whether the profs liked you or not.

• Unrealistic deadlines/workloads were set. Students who didn't submit work on time/whose programs crashed immediately on startup were then given extra time. Students who submitted work that started up were graded as-is on the deadline. This evened out the grades between self-taught programmers and those who were struggling.

• Group projects in which the group composition was fixed by the staff. They administered a programming test at the start of the course to identify those who had already taught themselves coding and then ensured every group had one such person. That person then did all the work, and the others in the group either slacked off or wrote the associated "report".

• Assessments in which the professors/TAs simply looked at the running program on the student's screen to judge if it worked. Students were informed of this practice up front, thus you could pass a programming exercise by simply making mockups in which the buttons didn't actually do anything, or updated the UI in hard coded ways.

And so on. I put report in quotes because the contents of these reports was primarily make-work.

The golden rule - at no point in the entire course did any of the teachers actually do a code review of any kind. Code was written but not read. Needless to say, cheating was rampant. None of the above can be fixed because academics are marking their own homework.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#688

I've noticed an increasing reticence from senior programmers I know to have anything to do with DevOps. They see it as an aggravation they don't want in their lives. Somebody posted a little while back about it being easy to find consulting work in DevOps with relatively little skill, especially AWS pricing, specifically because devs at companies aren't putting in the time to learn AWS properly. Has anybody else noti…

I just want it to work. Stick some kid on it who isn't going to realize how craptastic the job is for a few years. They get to feel like a ninja and I can get my PR in prod.

DevOps is slightly more sophisticated system administration--janitorial work. With a much higher occurrence of vomit.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#690
> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing

This is an instant no-go for me. As others have said as well, I usually find work from my network so I don't really have to look at ads.

The problem is also that a significant portion of seniors at some point will want to start their own business too, so they will leave the job market.

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