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Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

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Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#351

Post by sys_64738 »

_odey wrote: post #285

`- Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing` This. Get rid of this. Everybody that reads this, get rid of it if you have such a step in your interview process. Do a 1 hour maximum live challenge instead, or skip it entirely if the candidate has any public code you review and good enough. This is what I've done in the current company and we've managed to hire some extremely good senior c…

This is actually insulting to senior developers. You're gonna ask for a four hour take home and presentation like it's show and tell at hight school. I know how to code and don't have to prove to you that I can. If you think I do then you have a real problem.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#352

Post by lmc »

alexanderh wrote: post #217
burnte wrote: post #185

Yeah, the last three steps are killing you. I'm not going to do a 4 hour skill assessment, period. No senior people will. We're not making a solid 6 figures because we're idiots faking our way through the world. Skip that assessment and presentation, and implement a 90 day probationary period like everyone else.

THANK YOU, THIS ^^^ Any company needing to "Test" me, is an instant sign of disrespect. It means you already don't trust me so I don't trust you. Now obviously there needs to be some accountability, and I think a 90 probationary period is a perfect compromise. When you are hiring senior talent, we aren't desperate or dying for your job. You need to sell it to us. You need to accommodate us. You need to make it easy f…

Entitled much? Instead of 4 hours of your time [0], you get to waste up to 90 days of an employer's? (or more likely some multiple of that, counting interactions with others on the team)

[0] it probably takes even more of the employer's time in reviewing and discussing the application.

Hiring sucks for all parties. Everyone should try to meet half way, and be respectful of the other's time.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#353

Post by mooreds »

Some ideas to help you stand out:

* Post the salary in the ad. At least a range.

* Pay folks for their take home assignment time. A few years ago, we paid senior folks $500. It is a token, not a contract, but it shows you care.

* If it is the people that make it great, profile them so that potential hires can see their awesomeness. Help them grow their profile (speaking, writing, OSS) if they want.

* Are you properly developing your junior folks so they can grow into seniors? Giving them autonomy, learning opportunities and salary bumps?

* Have a shorter hiring process. Maybe cut out the recruiter screen?

* As a hard bitten senior engineer, I can tell you that I value equity at zero. If I get an equity win, awesome! But I don't count on it. (You don't mention it, but thought I'd share that.)

* Sponsor a meetup (~$100/month). This is a long term play.

* Any other benefits/things that make you special? Why should anyone want to work there?

That said, I like a saying that I learned when I worked in the real estate industry during the great recession: "there's no problem that price can't fix".

There's no hiring problem that higher salaries can't fix. The higher salaries may cause other issues, but you'll get your hires.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#354

Post by phyzome »

s0rce wrote: post #326
jiggawatts wrote: post #314

POST THE SALARY. Senior people are senior because of their work experience, which they gain from steady employment. Almost by definition you are looking to entice busy, employed people away from their current jobs. They don’t have the time or inclination to trawl through job ad after job ad. Where your competition will ask for 15 years of experience and then only after hours of calls and meetings reluctantly make an…

I've tried to advocate for this at my organization and been told that we don't want people primarily motivated by money...

Why exactly do they think people look to get hired? For fun?

It's important to me that I think my employer is doing good stuff for the world, but I'm there to be paid so I can get food and housing and internet.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#355

Post by dominotw »

Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #160
anon291 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

> The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. Completely agree here - like a fool I recently went through an entire day's worth interviews for a role (hello Stripe recruiters!!) that required both me and my wife taking PTO, with her looking after the kids while I talked to one junior dev after another abo…

> like a fool I recently went through an entire day's worth interviews for a role

whats the alternative though. why do you consider that foolish?

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#356

Post by harel »

I can only speak form myself of course, and from a UK perspective, but here are my 2 pence: Most seniors are either already employed, or are consulting/contracting. Those employed will need serious incentives to move. You can read that as "significantly higher pay and lower friction on entry". That excludes the 4 hour assignment - I would have declined you there and then. I simply don't have the time to give you 4 hours on a maybe basis. Those consulting (myself included) are even a higher barrier to breach - you are unlikely to match them in pay requirement. However, here's another option: hire a couple those consultants for 3 months, pay them whatever day rate they want, and have them level up all your juniors.

You will then have the problem of retention of your less-junior staff.

One other anecdote, which is a pet peeve of mine - I used the words Senior/Junior because you referred to it, but I have a dislike to those tags as it's vague to what they means. Junior/Senior in years? in experience? in talent? Some of the best people I've worked with had zero commercial experience when I met them and they blew me out the water with raw talent.

P.S. If you do want to hire a top dev-ops consultant and don't mind him being remote, I know one who just became free and he won't be for long. My details are in my profile.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#357

Post by dominotw »

scruple wrote: post #84
corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

> Many seniors (actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that. Just wanted to back this up a little bit. This is exactly what happened to me on my last job search. I'm currently in between jobs, starting the new gig after the 4th of July holid…

really hope they cut out this referral stuff. These guys have turned all of silicon valley into incestuous bro-land. This needs to be made illegal.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#358

Post by vorpalhex »

ghaff wrote: post #178
Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. Completely agree here - like a fool I recently went through an entire day's worth interviews for a role (hello Stripe recruiters!!) that required both me and my wife taking PTO, with her looking after the kids while I talked to one junior dev after another abo…

As something of a counterpoint, a literal 4-hour assignment isn't that bad--especially as an alternative to a day of interviews. If they give you the assignment and it's immediately obvious that it's actually a 20+ hour assignment, you can always just walk. When I worked for a technology analyst company, we would ask for writing samples--which most potential hires would already have. But, if someone didn't, they'd ha…

> When I worked for a technology analyst company, we would ask for writing samples--which most potential hires would already have. But, if someone didn't, they'd have to create one.

I have a github/gitlab full of code. You want to check it? Go for it. Happy to provide a portfolio on demand.

Make me write an api client..? No, get lost.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#359

Post by scarface74 »

jitix wrote: post #100
AndyNemmity wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, take home technical assignment. Why would I ever? I'd much rather have a comfortable conversation with someone who has worked with me in the past. I'm never, ever doing a 4 hour assignment for you.

But isn't the alternative to take home assignment leetcoding on whiteboards? Last time I was interviewing in the US market was in 2017 and it was literally just these two options. And the assignments tended to be long - like a week long. (tbh there were a few companies that pre-offered and just wanted one general discussion round with the team but they felt shady and desperate, and one was a literal consultancy) Coul…

I’m not exactly a “dev ops” person like the original person is looking for. I am the classical definition of dev ops. A software developer who knows cloud and consults with companies on how to develop “cloud natively”.

Before my current job, my last three jobs (2014, 2016, and 2018) were as a bog standard “enterprise” Senior software engineer/team lead/de facto “architect” who was hired to help the company mature. I got my job by talking to the manager, director, CTO based on my network and discussing my past successes and how I would go about helping then with their real world problems.

I am 99% sure if and when I leave my current job in the cloud consulting department at BigTech and probably go back to smaller companies I won’t be asked to do a “take home test”. My network is stronger now than it was before I came.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#360

Post by LargeWu »

s0rce wrote: post #326
jiggawatts wrote: post #314

POST THE SALARY. Senior people are senior because of their work experience, which they gain from steady employment. Almost by definition you are looking to entice busy, employed people away from their current jobs. They don’t have the time or inclination to trawl through job ad after job ad. Where your competition will ask for 15 years of experience and then only after hours of calls and meetings reluctantly make an…

I've tried to advocate for this at my organization and been told that we don't want people primarily motivated by money...

If I'm making $XXX,XXX, why am I even going to waste my time if I think there's a decent chance you'll offer $XXX,XXX - 20,000?

I think what you'll find is that people aren't motivated by money, per se, but they have obligations: mortgages, car payments, retirement savings. An established standard of living. Especially the more senior they get. I don't do better work for money, but at this point in my career you can be damned sure I'm not going to lower my standard of living just to work at a company with free soda and a ping pong table. I'd put up with a lot of bullshit in my current situation before taking a pay cut.

The unlikely exception would be a mission-driven company (if your company is for-profit, this is not you) that is highly congruent with my values and truly makes the world a better place.

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