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Why don’t European girls like science or technology? (2017)

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Re: Why don’t European girls like science or technology? (2017)

#51

Post by Wowfunhappy »

dang wrote: post #49
spzb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> females are worse at handling acute stress Every time this kind of issue comes up on HN there's someone who comes along to mansplain why women are inherently less able to do tech jobs. It's not a good look for our profession and we really should be above this by now.

HN has millions of users, so of course there's a wide spectrum of views. Any view that is sufficiently represented in society as a whole will appear here, regardless of how bad the argument is or feels. Moreover, HN users are all over the world, and geography (as a proxy for background and culture) has a huge influence on how people view these things. Surprisingly many of these disputes on HN come from people in one…

While I agree with the thrust of your post, I also think it's misleading to view HN as a proxy for all of society. HN is not a random sample of the world's population, and that skews discussion in all sorts of ways.

For example, HN quite clearly has more male commenters than female commenters. If we had an equal number of men and women, I suspect comments like the ones GP is referencing would be less frequent.

I wish GP hadn't made their point the way they made it (if at all), but I do believe they're reacting to something real.

> I don't think the solution can be to exclude subgroups.

I agree, but I do think a solution is to include more subgroups. I have no advice on how to do that. But, this is in fact why I'd like to see more women in technology.

Re: Why don’t European girls like science or technology? (2017)

#52

Post by dang »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #51
dang wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN has millions of users, so of course there's a wide spectrum of views. Any view that is sufficiently represented in society as a whole will appear here, regardless of how bad the argument is or feels. Moreover, HN users are all over the world, and geography (as a proxy for background and culture) has a huge influence on how people view these things. Surprisingly many of these disputes on HN come from people in one…

While I agree with the thrust of your post, I also think it's misleading to view HN as a proxy for all of society. HN is not a random sample of the world's population, and that skews discussion in all sorts of ways. For example, HN quite clearly has more male commenters than female commenters. If we had an equal number of men and women, I suspect comments like the ones GP is referencing would be less frequent. I wish…

> it's misleading to view HN as a proxy for all of society

I know I'm getting finicky here, but I am careful not to say that. What I say is that any view which is sufficiently represented in society as a whole is going to appear here as well. That doesn't mean it will appear in the same proportions.

> If we had an equal number of men and women, I suspect comments like the ones GP is referencing would be less frequent.

The point is that their frequency isn't the issue. The issue is their existence, and they will continue to exist here no matter how many more women or members of other underrepresented groups join HN (which I certainly hope they will!)

Re: Why don’t European girls like science or technology? (2017)

#53

Post by the_only_law »

dang wrote: post #49
spzb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> females are worse at handling acute stress Every time this kind of issue comes up on HN there's someone who comes along to mansplain why women are inherently less able to do tech jobs. It's not a good look for our profession and we really should be above this by now.

HN has millions of users, so of course there's a wide spectrum of views. Any view that is sufficiently represented in society as a whole will appear here, regardless of how bad the argument is or feels. Moreover, HN users are all over the world, and geography (as a proxy for background and culture) has a huge influence on how people view these things. Surprisingly many of these disputes on HN come from people in one…

> ny view that is sufficiently represented in society as a whole will appear here, regardless of how bad the argument is or feels. Moreover, HN users are all over the world, and geography (as a proxy for background and culture) has a huge influence on how people view these things. Surprisingly many of these disputes on HN come from people in one part of the world arguing with people in another part of the world without necessarily realizing it.

100% fair. That doesn't annoy me, that's the internet in general. What annoys me is the general air of arrogance from the HN community about how things are so great here and it doesn't have the problems of (whatever site you don't like), especially when I routinely have more intelligent discussions in Discord servers nowadays.

Re: Why don’t European girls like science or technology? (2017)

#54

Post by dang »

the_only_law wrote: post #53
dang wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN has millions of users, so of course there's a wide spectrum of views. Any view that is sufficiently represented in society as a whole will appear here, regardless of how bad the argument is or feels. Moreover, HN users are all over the world, and geography (as a proxy for background and culture) has a huge influence on how people view these things. Surprisingly many of these disputes on HN come from people in one…

> ny view that is sufficiently represented in society as a whole will appear here, regardless of how bad the argument is or feels. Moreover, HN users are all over the world, and geography (as a proxy for background and culture) has a huge influence on how people view these things. Surprisingly many of these disputes on HN come from people in one part of the world arguing with people in another part of the world witho…

From my perspective, there's more than one "general air". There's the air that you describe, and there's also an air of "I can't believe how bad/awful this place is" (presumably emanating from different users). Which feels the most "general" is really a function of the perceiver's preference: whichever you dislike more will feel the strongest. (You're referencing the same 'dislike' principle, actually, when you say "whatever site you don't like". I completely agree that that's how it works.)

These "airs" may not be as opposed as they appear. I think it has to do with how people identify. If you identify with HN (or whatever $object), you'll be more likely to say things about it that come across as triumphalist or arrogant. Someone who identifies against HN (or $object) will be more likely to say things about it that come across as supercilious or putdowns. Since that's just a mechanical consequence of identification, it's not that interesting—which explains why such comments (on both sides) tend to be generic and lack information—they're really not about $object, they're really about oneself. The interesting question is what drives the identification in the first place. That's not so easy to figure out from internet comments!

Re more intelligent discussions in Discord servers—I don't disbelieve you. The sad thing is that group size is one of the biggest variables affecting online discussion quality. Maybe the biggest. I say sad because it's sad to me—it means there's a cap on how good HN can ever get, and mostly all we can do is try to stave off decline. Or—to be superoptimistic—maybe it can slowly get a little better, if we spend a lot of energy.

Re: Why don’t European girls like science or technology? (2017)

#55

Post by danieltanfh95 »

adamrezich wrote: post #47
lmz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not Singaporeans no. I'm pretty sure their birth rate is below replacement.

well if that's the case then that's certainly a more important issue than the one being discussed here...

funnily enough, it might be due to the fact that more women participate in STEM for Singapore than other countries in the region that causes an overall lowered birth rate due to psychological stress.

Re: Why don’t European girls like science or technology? (2017)

#56

Post by danieltanfh95 »

Tarsul wrote: post #15
danieltanfh95 wrote: post #7

Singapore is 48.25% women in STEM vs 28% globally. https://www.ntu.edu.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-... However that number drops after graduation until it reaches a low 13.1 percent in management. The fact of the matter is that it isn't the lack of jobs or role models etc that's causing the issue, its the fact that females are worse at handling acute stress which is associated with STEM related jobs. Wome…

btw. for the other readers: the 48% f/m in STEM is split as follows according to the linked study above: 74% (f/m) in health sciences; 27% in engineering; 32% in information technology; 60% in natural, physical and mathematical sciences. I think the most relevant sentence comes on page 8: "In short, data tell us that the gender gap is not consistent across STEM disciplines. Women generally prefer STEM studies and car…

as mentioned, women gravitate towards careers that provides for or provide women with emotional support to help with stress. That cannot be said of engineering-related or "things-oriented" jobs, stress is not factored into the development cycle.

Re: Why don’t European girls like science or technology? (2017)

#57

Post by danieltanfh95 »

spzb wrote: post #14
danieltanfh95 wrote: post #7

Singapore is 48.25% women in STEM vs 28% globally. https://www.ntu.edu.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-... However that number drops after graduation until it reaches a low 13.1 percent in management. The fact of the matter is that it isn't the lack of jobs or role models etc that's causing the issue, its the fact that females are worse at handling acute stress which is associated with STEM related jobs. Wome…

> females are worse at handling acute stress Every time this kind of issue comes up on HN there's someone who comes along to mansplain why women are inherently less able to do tech jobs. It's not a good look for our profession and we really should be above this by now.

What good about being "above this" by avoiding the issue at all. Understanding this fact and owning it means to increase women in tech, we need to factor in stress in the development cycle, we need to make sure that there are more or better avenues to enable social sharing of stress, and that may or may not even be incentivised at the corporate or tax level. This all comes with first accepting that women need help handling stress, so we can actually work on the problem and not hand waving it away by pretending that it isn't a problem.
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