The argument presented that a hot bar of iron would qualify as conscious if consciousness is computation also concludes that a hot bar of iron qualifies as a computer. Do you believe that a hot bar of iron is a computer? If your answer is no, then it seems like the argument presented here should be not be at all convincing.
(Author here.) > Do you believe that a hot bar of iron is a computer? This is the crux of it. The main objection to the triviality argument is that we've just used far too broad a definition of a "computer." If we're thinking that a hot iron bar is a computer, then this should suggest to us that it's the definition that's wrong. You are correct in saying that if the definition we use is wrong, the whole triviality ar…
Consciousness is not computation
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Re: Consciousness is not computation
#562I find this argument completely unconvincing. The mapping in a case like the iron bar is entirely ephemeral, pertaining only for an instant. For this argument to be valid you’d have to be able to persistently map the iron bar, or waterfall, to all ongoing transformations of states in the running program, using one single consistent mapping. Otherwise all you have is a snapshot of state, not an ongoing process. To ach…
> Talking about computation and consciousness is a sideshow, this is anti-materialism by the back door. Nothing more. I get the impression that philosophers of mind are slowly coming around to the conclusion that the existence of qualia alone refutes materialism (by which I mean the view that consciousness is produced by physical processes) . This post does assume that qualia exist so if you are taking the former pos…
Let me start by making a distinction: When you take a bite of an apple, you experience a variety of flavours: It's sweet, tart, and has a distinct apple aroma as well. Let's hone in on the last of those. If you took apart an apple under a microscope and examined its flavour compounds, you could find what chemical causes you to experience the sensation of apple flavour, but you would not find apple flavour itself. Let's call the experience of eating an apple and feeling a taste that has its own quality about it which is unique and distinct from every other taste apparent qualia—the conviction that qualia exist and you're experiencing them. The apple flavour itself is an actual quale.
Suppose we build a smart computer, self-aware enough to hold a conversation about philosophy. And let us suppose that we can say for certain that this computer has no access to actual qualia, and we know because we've solved the hard problem of consciousness. Apple flavour is real, we know where to find it (in dimension X or whatever) and only human neurons can access it. This computer does have senses, though, and its senses are abstract. When we look at a stop sign, we don't know which of the millions of rods and cones are firing in our retinas, no more so does our computer know which pixels of its camera are sensing which wavelengths. We, and the computer, just know that we're seeing red. We deal in abstracts.
We put an apple into this computer's mechanical mouth. It chews, it tastes, and we ask it to describe the flavour. "It's sweet, it's tart, and it has a distinct apple aroma," it says. Very well, it doesn't need access to actual qualia to know this. Apples contain sugars, acids, and apple flavour compounds. The computer is just listing the names for the flavours which correspond to those chemicals.
"Computer," we ask, "tell us how you can tell that the apple is apple-flavoured."
"Well," it responds, "the chemical signals from my mouth, as interpreted by the digital plumbing of my mind, are telling me there's an apple flavour."
"Can you describe this flavour to us? Is it the same as strawberry flavour?"
"No, they're different flavours, but I can't really describe them to you. I can just tell they're different."
You take a small white pill and put it in the computer's mouth. "Oh, this is an apple-flavoured pill," it remarks.
"How can you tell it's apple-flavoured?" you ask.
"Well, the flavour is the same as the flavour of an apple."
"Can you describe that flavour?"
"No, it's indescribable. But it is distinct. That's why I can recognize it."
As we go on with our thought experiment, it becomes clear that this computer is experiencing apparent qualia. To the computer, all these flavours are unique and distinct and recognizable—they must be, in order for its senses to function. How can this happen, if it doesn't have access to actual qualia? Well, qualia are the basic building blocks of our senses. They are abstract: The flavour of an apple may be reducible to a set of other flavours, but those base flavour are atomic. You can't break down sweetness any further, or even really describe it at all; it simply is itself.
Any intelligent entity with senses will interpret those senses in terms of basic building blocks. Those basic blocks will be distinct and recognizable; in order to tell the difference between red and yellow, the colour red must exist in the mind in a way which is distinct from the colour yellow. Because these building blocks are atomic, that distinction is irreducible. It is very easy to look at these atomic abstractions and marvel at them, and it's intuitive to start asking questions like, "What is redness itself? What is the source of the actual quale which I am experiencing when I look at something red?", but we're jumping the gun there. Apparent qualia, the experience of unique and essential sensory building blocks, arises necessarily from self-aware examination of sensory input regardless of whether there are any actual qualia or not. If we must necessarily feel that "redness" exists in order for our senses to work, how can we ever be sure that this feeling reflects an actual "redness" and is not just a necessary illusion?
A final argument: We exist because natural selection tweaked the structure of some self-replicating acids over the course of billions of years until they were smart enough to examine the world around them and question their own perceptions of it. The consciousness we exhibit is not essential to this; the only goal of our design is reproduction. Even if you don't think a computer can feel actual qualia, a computer can certainly make decisions to optimize survival and reproduction, which is all we actually need to do. Why would evolution give us access to actual qualia when we don't need them? Why aren't we simply biological computers? As our thought experiment earlier suggests, however, a biological computer would feel as if it had access to actual qualia even if it didn't. Perhaps evolution could construct a complex qualia-sensing interface using science that humanity hasn't even conceived of yet, but it could also construct a simple biological computer that is convinced it feels actual qualia even though it doesn't. Both would work equally well. Even if actual qualia do exist, Occam's razor suggests we don't have access to them.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#563Earlier quoted context omitted.
When I woke up after surgery I felt that 1.5 hours had passed. But in actuality it was something around 4 hours since I went under. It turned out that 1.5 hours before I woke up I had been brought out of anesthesia and after that I simply slept. I didn't have any dreams at all, but at least my internal clock had started working. A clock presumably doesn't need consciousness, but there's definitely a qualitative diffe…
How do you estimate time elapsed without external inputs? Experiments where people cut themselves from external stimuli seem to show that on the contrary, we don’t good internal clocks on this regard.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#564The key error in the argument is here: "[T]he only reason we call a box with a CPU in it a “computer” is because we happen to have a simple mapping between the voltage levels across different parts of the CPU to a set of bits we have defined, and when these voltages interact they do so according to the rules of a set of logical operations which we have also defined. But there is no meaning to the physical system apar…
There are documented cases of people in comas/full paralysis who later wake up and remember being conscious throughout the coma. If they never woke up to tell anyone about it (or died before they had the chance to wake up) would they not have been conscious? We can of course observe that there is brain activity to some degree but I'm not sure that we would consider that output in a meaningful way anymore than somethi…
This is an edge case where one could say the person was (or might have been) conscious but nobody else ever got the chance to find out. In any concept like this we should expect edge cases.
> who determines what inputs/outputs qualify as semantic?
The function of the inputs/outputs in the overall function of the entity and how it relates to the rest of the world.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#565Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a digital representation, theoretically if we simulate all facets of weather and all facets of consciousness, the simulated consciousness could experience all facets of rain We are not digital, to simulate it for our conscious experience we can simulate weather in a closed biodome type of structure where we control the water cycles
This is exactly the point. Simulated rain isn't real rain, it's a digital representation. So, the argument goes, that a simulated consciousness is not a real consciousness, but a digital approximation. It's as real as the fake rain. In other words, there is something inherently biological about consciousness. Simulating rain doesn't produce water, and simulating a brain doesn't produce consciousness.
Also by the article's definition, a simulated consciousness (should it somehow exist) is no less real since only the consciousness' own qualia matters and the hypothetical simulated consciousness must have one by definition.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#566Earlier quoted context omitted.
On the first issue, that's the Boltzmann's Brain proposition, and well, yes. Given infinite monkeys, you'll get Shakespear. I don't see what that has to do with whether consciousness is computational or not. It certainly doesn't refute it. >Just to be clear, you don't doubt that a sufficiently large field of rocks is conscious as long as it is performing the same computation as a brain? No I don't, for the same reaso…
What about the arguments outlined in the article? You first dismissed the arguments because an iron bar couldn't have enough physical states. But we both accept that there are physical objects which do have enough physical states, even if we have to use the entire observable universe as the object that the mapping draws from (and that's not related to the Boltzmann Brain). So the arguments in the article seems to be…
I don't see how this is not the Bolzmann's Brain proposition. What's the difference?
>Consciousness can have a materialist explanation yet also be substrate dependent to an extent.
I suppose so, maybe there's a quantum mechanical component, but even in that case why couldn't that be built into a computer? What sort of substrate might it be that we couldn't build it into a robot for example?
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#567Earlier quoted context omitted.
>In particular I was confused by his description of the iron bar as a computer because he didn't actually explain how it computed anything. It's not computing anything. What he's saying is that, by random chance, some pattern of flipping states in the medium might coincidentally correspond to a computer executing a program. Therefore if consciousness is a program, such a pattern could be considered conscious. This is…
> Why do you assume that verbal signals can induce any possible change in symbolic state in a brain? OK let's backup. What would it mean to say that "qualia are reducible to a symbolic representation" if they cannot be expressed by language ? It seems to me that language includes all possible symbolic representations. Can you give an example of a symbolic representation that is not expressible by language ?
We are aware of our own thoughts through processing a mental model of ourselves, this mental model of ourselves includes introspection on our experiences, while we are having those experiences. That's qualia. A static symbolic state would be the equivalent of a memory of experiencing qualia.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#568I am of the mind that consciousness is an emergent property of the various interconnected information processing systems of the brain. There's just too much evidence: for instance, changing the physiology of the brain through drugs or trauma has predictable changes on consciousness. From that perspective, I think it's pretty clear that consciousness is some kind of computation rooted in the physical world. However to…
Consciousness is a pure information process, and therefore computable.
Or consciousness is not an information process.
We only know of one thing that is not an information process, and that is entropy.
Given that entropy is precisely the creation of new information, and that this is a big part of most people's conception of free will, it seems reasonable to conclude that consciousness is much like a combination of self reference and entropy generation rather than some special other thing.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#569Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a little bit of an emotional take I think. The burden of proof is on the claim that you can get there through computation, not otherwise. We do not understand the fundamental reality of consciousness, this does not mean that consciousness is magic. The assertion that you cannot get there from computation implies there is a currently non understood yet essential piece of physics(I assume, but I do not know) wh…
All the arguments Ive seen against computational consciousness seem to me to reduce down to arguments against materialism. I expounded on this more in a root comment, and subsequent discussions so I won't repeat. Right now in physics and the materials sciences materialism is thoroughly uncontroversial. There is no evidence for any kind of dualism, it only rears it's nebulous and poorly defined head when we talk about…
I find this very similar to alchemy in the 15th century. The idea was “gold is heavy, malleable, lustery metal, and so is lead. We have observed substances can be converted others. Therefore with the right chemical process we can convert lead to gold”. The implicit assumption is that since the two things are similar, they can be made to exhibit the same properties with the right science. I.e. lead can become gold.
This is the same as the “meat brain/silicon brain” line of reasoning. But as we learned with more advanced chemistry, lead cannot be turned into gold (at least not in the chemical way they were expecting).
So the burden of proof does lie with those making the assertion that: “meat computer has consciousness”, therefore “silicon computer could have consciousness”. Lots of people assume this is just a given without any evidence. Just as alchemists assumed from the similarities between gold and lead meant they could be chemically converted. I would postulate chemistry is much simpler then consciousness.
Re: Consciousness is not computation
#570Earlier quoted context omitted.
"To achieve a persistent mapping for a significant time you'd probably need an iron bar something like size of the observable universe" But the observable universe exists. So why can't the observable universe appropriately substitute for the iron bar in his argument? "As for doubting the field of rocks can be conscious" Just to be clear, you don't doubt that a sufficiently large field of rocks is conscious as long as…
On the first issue, that's the Boltzmann's Brain proposition, and well, yes. Given infinite monkeys, you'll get Shakespear. I don't see what that has to do with whether consciousness is computational or not. It certainly doesn't refute it. >Just to be clear, you don't doubt that a sufficiently large field of rocks is conscious as long as it is performing the same computation as a brain? No I don't, for the same reaso…
That seems like an odd assertion. Just because you can produce and infinite number of something it doesn't mean that every variation will be produced. I can generate an infinite list of numbers that doesn't contain '3'.