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Stolperstein

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Re: Stolperstein

#151

Post by asib »

cs137 wrote: post #136
edanm wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with most of your post, but did want to point out one thing: >[...] most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. While that certainly might be true wherever you live, note that the majority of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel, and at least some fairly large portion of that population does support Israel's policies and recent actions. (I assume we're talking about…

The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. As for Israelis and support for their government, that is... complicated. Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "in…

Total aside, but I've not seen this use of the word "plurality" before - I'm reading it here as a synonym for "majority", which might be wrong of me! Is it colloquial to a certain group of English language speakers?

Re: Stolperstein

#152

Post by OJFord »

Freak_NL wrote: post #99
jeroen wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not uncommon to have memorials in places where they are very much present in every day life, e.g.: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_verwoeste_stad A statue remembering the bombing of Rotterdam, in a busy place in the centre of Rotterdam. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagage_(Leiden) A monument in multiple pieces remembering deportation. Most of them are placed in residential areas, in full view of the people who…

Those are a lot more abstract though, placed in much more considerate locations (I have lived in Leiden myself), and not nearly as numerous. You can tell that a lot of thought went into the planning and realization of these. Having an actual name on it makes it a lot more personal (which is the intent after all), and having hundreds of them all over historic areas of any given town makes it a barrage rather than a su…

Typically not sad things (they celebrate someone who achieved something(s) great) but in the UK one might live somewhere decorated by (literally on the exterior wall) a 'blue plaque'.

I realise that's not quite the same, but a similar reminder of someone you don't necessarily want to be reminded of (albeit for probably completely different reasons) who 'lived here'.

Re: Stolperstein

#153

Post by ratww »

ascar wrote: post #143

As a German I think it's weird the article starts with "A Stolperstein is..." and then directly refers to the art project of Gunter Demning. That's not what "a" Stolperstein is. It's a common phrase in German about a stone that makes you stumble on an otherwise even/walkable road/pathway. It's also used in the metaphorical sense, if something makes you stumble/fall on your metaphorical way of life. No German would th…

One popular solution for that is having a {{See Wiktionary}} tag on the top of the article that adds the text 'For a definition of the term "Stolperstein", see the Wiktionary entry Stolperstein.'

Re: Stolperstein

#154

Post by heartbeats »

tpoacher wrote: post #77
Klaster_1 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea to put a bit more info about the person was brilliant, even a single sentence makes you relate more. There is a similar project in Russia called The Last Address [1], I see these a lot (but probably not enough) in the Saint-Petersburg historical center, and although being a similar age and area of expertise to lots of victims helps, even a brief summary of their "wrongdoings" would go a long way enriching th…

I always thought that a firstperson shooter game where whenever you killed a mook you'd get a quick flashback of that person's life would have been a super interesting concept. Especially if it was a Call of Duty like game, rather than a game where you could choose to avoid killing.

https://xkcd.com/873/

Re: Stolperstein

#155

Post by heartbeats »

cs137 wrote: post #136
edanm wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with most of your post, but did want to point out one thing: >[...] most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. While that certainly might be true wherever you live, note that the majority of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel, and at least some fairly large portion of that population does support Israel's policies and recent actions. (I assume we're talking about…

The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. As for Israelis and support for their government, that is... complicated. Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "in…

> if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "innately" warlike or antisemitic (I don't think that's true) but because the states in the region are deeply corrupt

Are you sure? I mean, it's a well-established principle of international relations that the people of a country get to decide what happens to it - this is why the Germans were expelled from Europe after the war.

My understanding is that the Israelis had to remove some people to make way for their state - doesn't this apply to the Palestinians too, if they want their land back? Or am I missing something, did they leave voluntarily because of dissatisfaction with the government etc?

Genuine question, just asking.

Re: Stolperstein

#156

Post by heartbeats »

asib wrote: post #151
cs137 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. As for Israelis and support for their government, that is... complicated. Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "in…

Total aside, but I've not seen this use of the word "plurality" before - I'm reading it here as a synonym for "majority", which might be wrong of me! Is it colloquial to a certain group of English language speakers?

Plurality means the largest but non-majority group.

Re: Stolperstein

#157

Post by trasz »

photochemsyn wrote: post #140
jemen wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. I very much believe that this is the intention, but does it actually though? Oppressive country frequently brings up the past as a safe way to legitimize the present. Russia seems to have had an increase in this in recent years as it now started a war in Eu…

It's important to note that elements in Ukraine since 2014 pushed a series of oppressive legal restrictions on the Russian-speaking segment of the population that were designed to push that entire group into second-class citizen status. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-langua... > (2019) "The law, which obliges all citizens to know the Ukrainian language and makes it a mandatory requirement for c…

It's important to note that the comment above is just propaganda. Read the linked articles, they aren't even close to the ideas presented above - but links to RT and Sputnik would look suspicious, and nobody clicks those links anyway.

Re: Stolperstein

#158

Post by winReInstall »

spython wrote: post #111
Klaster_1 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea to put a bit more info about the person was brilliant, even a single sentence makes you relate more. There is a similar project in Russia called The Last Address [1], I see these a lot (but probably not enough) in the Saint-Petersburg historical center, and although being a similar age and area of expertise to lots of victims helps, even a brief summary of their "wrongdoings" would go a long way enriching th…

I think with many victims we just don't know what exactly happened – some were opposing the regime, some told a political joke, some were falsely accused by their co-workers in order to get promoted to their position, some were falsely accused by their (innocent) friends who were tortured by NKVD, some had a wrong biography, and others had a wrong name. They all got Article 58.

A woman in my town was send into the "lighter" political version of the KZ, because she remarked upon recieving the "medal of motherhood" with a cynic "and were shall i pin that, to my bottom?"

Totalitarian nightmares have no humor. If you think, your favourite thing in life shoul dbe spared jokes and jests, you are heading right towards that spot. Nothing should be sacrosanct to jokes.

I raise my glass to those who walked into the fence, taking theire workforce awaz from the fuehrer and his germinions.

Re: Stolperstein

#159

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

patrec wrote: post #147
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polish Jews were targeted as Jews, but non-Jewish Poles were not targeted in the same way (i.e., the Germans were brutal occupiers, but Catholic Poles were not targeted for extermination). However, there is a modern historical myth in Poland about extermination camps targeting non-Jewish Poles. For many years, there was a Wikipedia article about a fictional extermination camp for Poles. That theory is now discussed i…

> Polish Jews were targeted as Jews, but non-Jewish Poles were not targeted in the same way (i.e., the Germans were brutal occupiers, but Catholic Poles were not targeted for extermination). What are you talking about? The Nazis absolutely intended to exterminate Catholic Poles (and other Slavs). Murdering Jews was higher priority, but had the Nazis won there wouldn't be too many Slavs around in Eastern Europe today.…

> What are you talking about?

The fact that the Nazis attempted to exterminate the Jews in Poland, and almost succeeded. They killed 90% of the Jewish population.

There were horrific plans for most of the Slavic population of Eastern Europe for after the war (Generalplan Ost, which you've linked to), but they were never put into operation. Catholic Poles were not subject to anything near the level of persecution as Jewish Poles.

> together with their erstwhile allies, the Soviets

The Germans and Soviets weren't "erstwhile allies." The Soviets were defined as enemy #1 by the Nazis. The Soviets were aware of this, and tried to organize an anti-German military alliance with France and to save Czechoslovakia. France refused, and Poland, which itself wanted to get a piece of Czechoslovakia, refused to allow Soviet troops to transit its territory into Czechoslovakia. After Britain and France sold out Czechoslovakia, the Soviets decided to make a dirty deal with the Germans, in order to delay the German attack for as long as possible. Not a shining moment, but calling the Soviets "erstwhile allies" of the Germans is a gross distortion of history, particularly given that it's the Soviets who made the largest contribution to the defeat of the Nazis.

Re: Stolperstein

#160

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

gpjanik wrote: post #126
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Germans did terrible things in Poland and had even more terrifying plans for Poland after the war, but there was no Holocaust against non-Jewish Poles. The way that Jewish and non-Jewish Poles were treated was worlds apart. About 90% of Polish Jews were killed (a majority of all Polish deaths during the war, despite making up only 15% of the pre-war population). Edit: The people trying to draw an equivalence betw…

I think we directionally agree; about the post-Soviet phenomenon - I know for fact that this phenomenon started immediately after the war and was part of consolidating power by the Soviets. The communist Poland was, in a weird way, quite nationalistic. But you are right that this phenomenon has its reneissance, or even reinforced version now as we're speaking. I don't fully understand what specifically do you mean by…

> I don't fully understand what specifically do you mean by saying that there was no holocaust to non-Jewish Poles

There was no systematic extermination of Catholic Poles. To be a Jew in occupied Europe was to be hunted. 90% of Jews in Poland were killed. You basically had to have a miracle to survive. There's very little in modern history like this.

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