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Stolperstein

en.wikipedia.org

141–150 of 187 posts

Re: Stolperstein

#141
post #136
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with most of your post, but did want to point out one thing: >[...] most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. While that certainly might be true wherever you live, note that the majority of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel, and at least some fairly large portion of that population does support Israel's policies and recent actions. (I assume we're talking about…

The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. As for Israelis and support for their government, that is... complicated. Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "in…

> The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close.

It's definitely close, but Wiki still gives it to Israel right now (at least here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#D...)

> Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "innately" warlike or antisemitic (I don't think that's true) but because the states in the region are deeply corrupt, failing states [...]

I tend to agree that that is what would happen, but I think the neighboring countries have at least a somewhat legitimate beef with Israel and its actions. It's largely promoted by leadership for reasons like you stated, but it is still true that lots of Arab (and Muslim) people think that Israel did something wrong. I mostly don't agree with their POV, but it has a legitimate basis. (And my disagreement is at least partly by saying "yeah, almost every country has a... problematic history, you can't just forever be at war with it for that".)

> The Israeli state is deeply problematic, corrupted by capitalism and some amount of racism (as almost all Western states are). It also has a job that is tough as hell: protecting a vulnerable minority group from millions who would murder them. The middle-of-the-road Israeli understands the need to protect themselves, but isn't a huge fan of the settlements (if he thinks about them at all) and certainly would love to see peace in the region.

I wish that were true about the median (Jewish) Israeli. I don't know if that's right. For sure it's less a topic of conversation inside Israel than it is outside of it, so I agree with the idea that most Israelis don't think about it too much.

Re: Stolperstein

#142
post #134

This made me think: "Unlike many other German cities, the city council of Munich in 2004 rejected the installation of Stolpersteine on public property, following objections raised by Munich's Jewish community... She objected to the idea that the names of murdered Jews be inserted in the pavement, where people might accidentally step on them. In other cities, permission for the project was preceded by long, sometimes…

Sidewalks are also very dirty (spit, dogs, trash, etc.) I think this would have been better by mounting them on the walls.

Many cultures consider stepping on someone's name, burial, or memorial horribly disrespectful.

Re: Stolperstein

#143
As a German I think it's weird the article starts with "A Stolperstein is..." and then directly refers to the art project of Gunter Demning.

That's not what "a" Stolperstein is. It's a common phrase in German about a stone that makes you stumble on an otherwise even/walkable road/pathway. It's also used in the metaphorical sense, if something makes you stumble/fall on your metaphorical way of life.

No German would think of the word Stolperstein and the art project as synonyms. In fact I hadn't heard about it until today. The German wikipedia introduction is clearer on that and starts with "The Stolpersteine are a project of artist Gunter Demning" and I think the English wikipedia should be adjusted accordingly.

Re: Stolperstein

#144
post #7

It's weird that the article explicitly mentiones various groups that were killed/deported to German concentration camps across Europe and commemorated by the stones, but does not mention the second largest one - Poles. German historical policy tends to not include Poles as victims the 1939-1945 Germany, but in spite of that, there are multiple stones commemorating them in today's Berlin.

Polish Jews were targeted as Jews, but non-Jewish Poles were not targeted in the same way (i.e., the Germans were brutal occupiers, but Catholic Poles were not targeted for extermination). However, there is a modern historical myth in Poland about extermination camps targeting non-Jewish Poles. For many years, there was a Wikipedia article about a fictional extermination camp for Poles. That theory is now discussed i…

The whole notion of equivalency of evil is actually pernicious, as it is more of a contest of victimhood: "they did worse to us, so we are better". Arguing about numbers abstracts from the reality that even one person being killed for such an inhuman regime is already too many.

I think it would be sufficient to condemn the evil that was committed rather than make a certain group better because "They suffered more". So many suffered from that evil regime that we don't need a contest to see who is better. The Catholic clergy were in fact terribly persecuted in German and Poland by the Nazi regime, hundreds of priests being killed in Dachau alone. This doesn't take away the horrors that others suffered nor allow us to somehow abstract from them just because "our tribe suffered more".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp

Re: Stolperstein

#146
post #143

As a German I think it's weird the article starts with "A Stolperstein is..." and then directly refers to the art project of Gunter Demning. That's not what "a" Stolperstein is. It's a common phrase in German about a stone that makes you stumble on an otherwise even/walkable road/pathway. It's also used in the metaphorical sense, if something makes you stumble/fall on your metaphorical way of life. No German would th…

Fair criticism. You should edit it!

Re: Stolperstein

#147
post #7

It's weird that the article explicitly mentiones various groups that were killed/deported to German concentration camps across Europe and commemorated by the stones, but does not mention the second largest one - Poles. German historical policy tends to not include Poles as victims the 1939-1945 Germany, but in spite of that, there are multiple stones commemorating them in today's Berlin.

Polish Jews were targeted as Jews, but non-Jewish Poles were not targeted in the same way (i.e., the Germans were brutal occupiers, but Catholic Poles were not targeted for extermination). However, there is a modern historical myth in Poland about extermination camps targeting non-Jewish Poles. For many years, there was a Wikipedia article about a fictional extermination camp for Poles. That theory is now discussed i…

> Polish Jews were targeted as Jews, but non-Jewish Poles were not targeted in the same way (i.e., the Germans were brutal occupiers, but Catholic Poles were not targeted for extermination).

What are you talking about? The Nazis absolutely intended to exterminate Catholic Poles (and other Slavs). Murdering Jews was higher priority, but had the Nazis won there wouldn't be too many Slavs around in Eastern Europe today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

And despite losing the war the Germans together with their erstwhile allies, the Soviets, still managed to exterminate a huge fraction of the Polish elite in a targeted fashion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Re: Stolperstein

#148
post #143

As a German I think it's weird the article starts with "A Stolperstein is..." and then directly refers to the art project of Gunter Demning. That's not what "a" Stolperstein is. It's a common phrase in German about a stone that makes you stumble on an otherwise even/walkable road/pathway. It's also used in the metaphorical sense, if something makes you stumble/fall on your metaphorical way of life. No German would th…

I think the second paragraph should just be the first. (Or perhaps somehow keeping the pronunciation guide etc. in the first for prominence, since that's the usual Wikipedia style.)

Re: Stolperstein

#149
post #143

As a German I think it's weird the article starts with "A Stolperstein is..." and then directly refers to the art project of Gunter Demning. That's not what "a" Stolperstein is. It's a common phrase in German about a stone that makes you stumble on an otherwise even/walkable road/pathway. It's also used in the metaphorical sense, if something makes you stumble/fall on your metaphorical way of life. No German would th…

[deleted]

Re: Stolperstein

#150
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my two cent counter-argument. Captialism is the biggest ruthless killing machine, whatever form it takes: nazism (Hitler was put to power by German industry/bourgeoisie), fascism (Mussolini advocated for State/Capital unification under "corporatism"), State capitalism (USSR was not very different from a people's perspective, with salaried work and gulags and political police), or ordinary liberalism (French re…

Wait, you’re lumping the USSR into “crimes of capitalism”.

Well, they are really similar, at some angle. As in capitalism, you promised freedoms, wealth and appreciation for you work hard enough. As in capitalism, all your work in going to entitled few, wars and keeping you enslaved. Also both are fiction and never existed.
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