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Consciousness is not computation

joe-antognini.github.io

371–380 of 767 posts

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can we even be sure we are the same person as yesterday? Or even five minutes ago.. It's all pretty weird.

That is an interesting thought. It might depend on how you define "person". When I look around, I see distinct human bodies. When I wake up, I'm in the same body as when I went to sleep, so in that sense I'm the same person.

What if "I" woke up in someone else's body? I'm sure there are movies with this premise, where "someone" wakes up in someone else's body, but they have the memories from their previous body.

But if memories are just physically encoded in the brain, I don't think this scenario makes sense even as a thought experiment.

When "I" wake up in the other person's body, I would have all their memories and none of my previous memories. So I wouldn't even know.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#372
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computation does not have anything essential to it that makes it different from other "atoms jumping around" other than it produces outputs that we find interesting. There's no reason to expect an adder circuit to be aware that it's adding numbers. There's no reason to expect an implementation of AlphaGo to know that it's playing Go. This should be extendable without limitation. There's no reason to expect that a cer…

> There's no reason to expect an adder circuit to be aware that it's adding numbers There is no reason to expect a neuron to be aware that it's propagating part of the evolution of an epiphany.

I suppose your argument is, consciousness on the system level does not require individual parts to be conscious.

So let me expand a bit of why I used the adder circuit as an example.

There's nothing about addition that can say "this is addition" in an objective sense. We are dealing with binary encoding of numbers. There's nearly an infinite number of ways to encode information. The design of any circuit deals with particular encoding of information. This extends all the way up to the higher levels. There are an infinite number of ways to encode the state of a go board. Any AI that plays go will deal with some specific ways of encoding the state of the board, and that will be both its input and output.

The most popular "intuitive" model of how consciousness arises is basically hand waving about a system inspecting itself.

But you have to understand, a system inspecting its own state is not any different from a system inspecting any other arbitrary state. For the state of the system will be encoded in some way that was chosen arbitrarily. There's nothing essential about any encoding of any state that can possibly give raise to a phenomenon like consciousness.

You can come study the behavior of any arbitrary system, given certain inputs and outputs, and assign any meaning you want to its states. You can retro-fit any intepretation of state to the system.

Because the thing is with encoding information is it can be completely arbitrary. I can interpret the state [01010101] to be my username, and then interpret [1111000111] to be my real life name. This would allow me to say that a system that takes 01010101 as input and produces 1111000111 is actually a system that can derive my real life name from my username.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#373
I thought it was pretty well established that consciousness is a kind of illusion; That we evolved the ability to extrapolate persona in others which was/is useful to predict future actions and form bonds. Consciousness is just this ability turned inward.

I've seen a lot of evidence for this over the year from neurologists, psychologists etc. Am i wrong, or is this a 'mystery' until we get an answer we like?

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#374

Maybe I'm the only one who is real, and everyone else are just robots. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to know for sure.

How can we even be sure we are the same person as yesterday? Or even five minutes ago.. It's all pretty weird.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_identity

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#375
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Computation does not have anything essential to it that makes it different from other "atoms jumping around" other than it produces outputs that we find interesting. This is not true. Computing is a system where the physical hardware (the computer) is following rules that are explicitly encoded in itself - you can analyze the system and discover where and how the program it is following is encoded (as we did with D…

> This is not true. Computing is a system where the physical hardware (the computer) is following rules that are explicitly encoded in itself - you can analyze the system and discover where and how the program it is following is encoded (as we did with DNA). 1) No. The rules are just physics. Electric signals going through physical material. 2) Why is this event relevant? I can say the same about water pipes in a swe…

> 1) No. The rules are just physics. Electric signals going through physical material.

This is the wrong level of abstraction. Sure, ultimately everything happening in the CPU is electrical, but still the rules controlling what is shown on the screen are encoded in the OS code. If you encoded the same program in a mechanical computer, you would get the same results. It's not the electrical rules that are important, it's the program.

> 2) Why is this event relevant? I can say the same about water pipes in a sweage system . The way the water moves through pipes is encoded in the design and connections of the pipes. You can inspect it to figure out how it behaves.

Yes, I believe you can say that this system is performing a computation. I'm not sure if you can make a Turing complete computer in this way (I'm not sure how you could encode an If), but for example you can definitely write a program (arrange some pipes) to do some basic arithmetic.

> I've yet to see a model of consciousness that does not imply that the sewage system is conscious.

The claim is "Consciousness is a computation", not "any kind of computation is a form of consciousness". So, there is no immediate contradiction between believing "my consciousness is a computational process" and "this pocket watch is not conscious". Just like I can beleieve that consciousness is a physical phenomenon without believing that rocks are conscious.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#376
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not requiring specific physical processes, I'm asking for any physical process in a hot iron bar that executes any model of computation that is capable of running an arbitrary program. But you're saying there is not one, we just get lucky one time. That's not computation.

The physical process is simply that the atoms in the bar of iron start in one Turing machine state, obey the laws of physics, and end up in another Turing machine state. But this is also true of any other physical computer. It sounds like your objection is that this is not a computer because it's not reproducible --- we just got lucky that the physical states mapped onto the appropriate Turing machine states one time…

The physical process is simply that the atoms in the bar of iron start in one Turing machine state, obey the laws of physics, and end up in another Turing machine state.

I don't see how this addresses the key point -- those aren't random distinct states; there's an explicit description of how one state transitions to the next. That's part of the definition of the Turing machine!

If you could describe a mapping from the state of your iron bar to a Turing machine's state, such that the bar correctly transitions from one machine state to the next, then yes, it is a computer! Although as others have noticed, you'd need a ludicrously large and complex mapping; the infinitesimal tail would be wagging the infinite dog. At that point you could certainly argue that the computation is really happening in the mapping itself.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks this is exactly what I am trying to say. We dont know exactly how the universe is doing or how the photons do to themselves, but by doing experiments, scientists figured out the law of computiation of this vague "universe computer" a.k.a laws of physics. And since scientist's discovery do not violate the actually behavior of the physical world, there established a isomorphism. And the very same law is used in…

To my mind, I think that if you want to say that the universe is a computer, then you can't say it's doing linear algebra, even though the behavior of particles is described by linear algebra. If you want to model the universe as a computer, than its basic operations are the interactions described in the Standard Model, and the symbols it works on are particles&fields that exist. But the universe computer is not reso…

Bascially your assumption is that something that looks and works like an Intel CPU carry out an operation, that can be called a computation, everything else is not. But sorry this is not the only method to "compute". You are limiting the definition of computiation and try too hard to justify all false assumption that you have been made.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#379
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an interesting thought experiment that goes the other way. What if we replace a single neuron in a conscious person's brain by a properly connected real-time neuron simulator? Would that affect the person's consciousness? What about two neurons? Etc etc. At what point, if ever, would a progressively more simulated brain no longer be the original consciousness?

This may be a little deceptive depending on how you define "a properly connected real-time neuron simulator". Can it form new connections? Can it grow? Does it metabolize? Can it die? Etc...

These are all good questions and probably allow our realised thought experiment to gain more insight into what aspects are necessary for consciousness and what are just biological baggage.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#380
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, from a system of things that only exists with respect to participants will, we can hack it into a system of things with objective physical existence by presupposing a fictitious all-knowing never-lying arbitrator who will is physical law. In other words, we can invent god as a useful linguistic fiction to rig into being the aspects of my system you've criticized as impossible to construct.

Well, that's a sixth axiom to your system - now you've added a consciousness that has vastly more power than all the others. My point was that we can't find out anything about the phsycial world by just discussing it. We each have to experience it ourselves using our own senses. We can of course later discuss to devise new ways of understanding what the world is and how it works, but even then, we need to put any the…

> My point was that we can't find out anything about the phsycial world by just discussing it. We each have to experience it ourselves using our own senses.

You cite the primacy of sensation, but what more is sensation than a message from the sensory organ to the brain. Perhaps encoded in the brains internal language rather than the plain text we are used to, but messages none the less. The concept of existence-as-messages is thus not contradicted by the experience of messages from your own body.

Irrespective of any underlying physical reality, I can't escape the fact that I can never test reality itself, only my perception of it. We can get a lot of mileage out of the physicalist approach, accepting as an axiom that what we perceive as reality is real. But in that ground up approach we've had terrible difficulty deriving our ourselves from physical first principles. I'm not saying its impossible or wrong to take the path from atoms on upwards to consciousness and perception. But no one has been able to make it to the end of that path. What happens if we go the other way instead, starting from the known conclusion "I'm here and conscious enough to converse" and working our way down to the perception/understanding of an inanimate reality governed by objective physical principles? Can a system only designed to represent/reason about people talking to and about people be hacked into a system for representing and reasoning in general?

If we start from purely language models like GPT3 and continue to teach it the "social reasoning" of saying things we want to hear, will the language model eventually become capable of non-social reasoning as well? In the process of figuring out what we want to hear well enough to describe a non-contradictory scene to us, does GPT3 have to actually learn the rules of 3d euclidean space governing the scene? Is there any possible way to avoid scene contradictions without a full understanding of the underlying physical reality it is supposed to describe to us? If a camera feeds data to a language model, does the language model suddenly have eyes? What about pictures from the internet?

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