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Stolperstein

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Re: Stolperstein

#41

Post by jd115 »

waffleiron wrote: post #40
jd115 wrote: post #26

Quoted post unavailable.

> Will be very hard to walk in russia. That's not how these work, they are places at the home where the victim lived. Second, you are starting a flame war and being very off-topic.

They work how we want them to work. And nothing could be more on-topic than this right now. What the fuck is the point of remembering and saying "never again" if not to stop what is happening right now in front of our eyes?

Second, there can be no flame wars about this. Everyone agrees on the above.

Re: Stolperstein

#42

Post by isolli »

Related, I recommend following the account of the Auschwitz memorial: https://twitter.com/AuschwitzMuseum

Every day, they post pictures of a handful people who were detained (and almost always died) in the concentration camp, and seeing those in my feed is the virtual equivalent of Stolpersteine.

It's also sobering to think that, at the pace at which they post, it would take thousands of years to commemorate all the victims.

Re: Stolperstein

#43

Post by brodo »

kybernetyk wrote: post #27
durnygbur wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's their way of commemorating their victims and somehow in the process the second largest group slipped through. I don't want their way of commemorating their victims in my home Poland.

[flagged]

Where did you get that idea? I'd say if you'd claim something like that in public in Germany, you can kiss your career goodbye.

Re: Stolperstein

#44

Post by Lichtverschwend »

kybernetyk wrote: post #27
durnygbur wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's their way of commemorating their victims and somehow in the process the second largest group slipped through. I don't want their way of commemorating their victims in my home Poland.

[flagged]

Which German government do you mean ? There were 2 at that time.

Re: Stolperstein

#45

Post by brodo »

kybernetyk wrote: post #22
gpjanik wrote: post #7

It's weird that the article explicitly mentiones various groups that were killed/deported to German concentration camps across Europe and commemorated by the stones, but does not mention the second largest one - Poles. German historical policy tends to not include Poles as victims the 1939-1945 Germany, but in spite of that, there are multiple stones commemorating them in today's Berlin.

Germany has a very interesting views on poles. While Germans living in Poland are officially recognized as a minority with all the rights (German schools, street names) the German government to this day refuses to recognize poles living in Germany as a minority.

That is because large parts of what is now Poland used to be Germany and not the other way around. Germany did not accept losing the 'German east' until reunification. It took Helmut Kohl threatening to resign for the CDU accepting Poland in its current borders.

Re: Stolperstein

#46

Post by Klaster_1 »

uniqueuid wrote: post #3

It's an awesome idea, because it brings the painful past right into our daily lives. You're forced to serendipituously "stumble" across them every now and then. The stories on them, told in a brief phrase, are mostly heartbreaking, sometimes uplifting, always relevant. "Executed for making fun of the Führer", "Deported and gassed for hiding Jewish neighbors", "Survived concentration camp but parents, siblings and rel…

The idea to put a bit more info about the person was brilliant, even a single sentence makes you relate more. There is a similar project in Russia called The Last Address [1], I see these a lot (but probably not enough) in the Saint-Petersburg historical center, and although being a similar age and area of expertise to lots of victims helps, even a brief summary of their "wrongdoings" would go a long way enriching the perspective on our history, especially given current political climate here. "A 30 years old engineer lived here" doesn't ring as close as "a 30 years old engineer who lived here was murdered by the state for a crime of opposing the oppressive regime".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Address

Re: Stolperstein

#47

Post by Someone »

gpjanik wrote: post #7

It's weird that the article explicitly mentiones various groups that were killed/deported to German concentration camps across Europe and commemorated by the stones, but does not mention the second largest one - Poles. German historical policy tends to not include Poles as victims the 1939-1945 Germany, but in spite of that, there are multiple stones commemorating them in today's Berlin.

As far as I can tell, it doesn’t mention nationalities at all. For example, it doesn’t mention Germans, either.

If so, why would it have to mention Poles?

Re: Stolperstein

#48

Post by keiferski »

gpjanik wrote: post #34
kybernetyk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has a very interesting views on poles. While Germans living in Poland are officially recognized as a minority with all the rights (German schools, street names) the German government to this day refuses to recognize poles living in Germany as a minority.

Poles living in Germany are usually working migrants, not a minority that has lived there since centuries (like Germans in Poland). It's hard to compare those situations.

No, you are not correct. Poles have been in Germany for centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Germany

Re: Stolperstein

#49

Post by trhway »

jd115 wrote: post #26

Quoted post unavailable.

For many victims we'd not even know - for example about 50000 civilians have been killed by Russian forces in Mariupol and many bodies are inside the ruined buildings which Russia is just demolishing right now without taking the bodies out.

A lot of people on occupied territories - government/municipal officials, former military, journalists, activists, etc. - have already been kidnapped by the Russian SS force ("Russian Guard") and nobody knows and may never know the fate of the many of them.

About million of people have been moved into Russia - they are moved through "filtration camps" where those who deemed "nationalist" (anti-Russian posts in FB/Twitter for example or having family members who have fought on Ukrainian side) are filtered out and again fate unknown. The fate of the rest is officially some resettlement in Russia though there is no way to account for all of them.

Also a note about the Putin regime actions to erase the memory of the millions of victims of another mass killing - during recent years Russia de-facto outlawed (assigned impossible to exist with status of "foreign agent" which led to the organization closing) to the "Memorial" organization the main work of which was maintaining the public memory of the victims of the Stalin repressions.

Re: Stolperstein

#50

Post by zaat »

kybernetyk wrote: post #27
durnygbur wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's their way of commemorating their victims and somehow in the process the second largest group slipped through. I don't want their way of commemorating their victims in my home Poland.

[flagged]

The German government had reiterate the German responsibility continuously, in words, diplomatic action and payments for the surviving victims. The Polish government however has decided lately on line of denying their share in the war crimes, effort that includes anti-historic legislation.
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