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Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

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Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#281

Post by [deleted] »

rglullis wrote: post #278
Jakawao wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t address the criticism. If I pay for a good or service via crypto and it is not delivered satisfactorily, what is my remedy? Who even decides what “satisfaction” is? Yes, the dispute/chargeback process for cards is cumbersome today, but it is a solution - albeit inefficient. What is the crypto answer? I don’t mean to put you on the spot for this question, but I would love to understand how decentralized s…

> If I pay for a good or service via crypto and it is not delivered satisfactorily If you paid with cash, what is your remedy? And if the reason you need a third-party is just to resolve disputes, then what's stopping to have other companies that do nothing but the scrow-holding and dispute resolution?

[deleted]

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#282

Post by Brystephor »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #124
tpurves wrote: post #105

What many people don't realize is that the operational and customer service costs of payments don't scale with payment amount. Customers will cost almost just as frequently dispute, have questions, have problems, ask for help, attempt to defraud etc with a $1 transaction as they will a $100 or $1000 transaction. This is the real killer with micro payment schemes. Customer service costs scale more with number of payme…

Charge backs should also be less of an issue if the purchase is $1. Same with fraud. The stakes are lower the lower the amount. Who cares? It's not worth disputing. Fire the customer if it crosses a threshold.

You can get fined and kicked off the payment network if your business has an excessive number of chargebacks. The chargebacks measurement is the number of chargebacks, not the amount of dollars chargedback.

These fines can be greater than $100,000 USD. Being kicked off a network such as Visa or MasterCard would be even worse.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#283

Post by rglullis »

karpierz wrote: post #277
rglullis wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you buy anything with crypto and it turns out to be defective, or just not arrive, you have no recourse. If you buy something with cash and it turns out to be defective or it is never delivered, are you left with no recourse? "But online shopping could mean someone from some other part of the world!" yeah, then don't buy with crypto. > All non-reversible transactions do is put the risk of fraud on the consumer.…

> But the point here is that crypto can enable a whole lot of other businesses that don't exist today because of merchant risk. This doesn't address the primary risk that merchants take on: fraud. Either crypto or credit card, if you end up taking a payment via stolen credentials, you will refund the money. The risk that the middleman in a two-sided takes on is fraud. The scam is pretty simple: steal credit card/cryp…

> Either crypto or credit card, if you end up taking a payment via stolen credentials, you will refund the money.

This by itself shows that you are making a fundamental confusion: crypto is not to be compared with credit cards. crypto is meant to be cash.

Anyone that steals crypto will wash it before attempting to spend it. And depending on the network, you can't even know what is the origin. So, it would be the same as being robbed of cash.

But okay, let's move on.

> If your margin is slim, you've just amplified your fraud risk.

What if my margin is infinite? Say I want to sell digital goods, with an effective unit cost of zero. Why would I want to worry about the 1/1000 chance of someone "stealing" a copy, when that cost is nothing compared with credit card processor fees and the only thing I am trying to avoid is being hit with chargeback fees?

> wait until crypto becomes common

Crypto becoming common does not mean that people should be keeping large amounts in their wallets. A wallet is not a bank account.

Even those crazy enough to keep substantial amounts of funds in crypto would have (at least) two separate set of keys. One to use for their "hot wallet" and one for cold storage. This is almost basic practice. In a world where crypto "becomes common", what could happen is that your "bank" would be a service that is responsible (and properly paid) to be a trusted custodian of larger funds.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#284

Post by frakkingcylons »

I think this article is missing the real network effect of Patreon.

Anyone who uses Patreon will be much more likely to support you because they already have a Patreon account. They don't have to setup an account on some other platform and add their CC details again.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#285

Post by chadash »

rglullis wrote: post #278
Jakawao wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t address the criticism. If I pay for a good or service via crypto and it is not delivered satisfactorily, what is my remedy? Who even decides what “satisfaction” is? Yes, the dispute/chargeback process for cards is cumbersome today, but it is a solution - albeit inefficient. What is the crypto answer? I don’t mean to put you on the spot for this question, but I would love to understand how decentralized s…

> If I pay for a good or service via crypto and it is not delivered satisfactorily If you paid with cash, what is your remedy? And if the reason you need a third-party is just to resolve disputes, then what's stopping to have other companies that do nothing but the scrow-holding and dispute resolution?

If I pay in cash then I’m physically present. Usually I’m at a store with a reputation to uphold and a set return policy that’s reliable. If I’m transacting with an unknown entity (eg craigslist) then I can at least physically inspect the item. Very different than ordering online.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#286

Post by rglullis »

chadash wrote: post #285
rglullis wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I pay for a good or service via crypto and it is not delivered satisfactorily If you paid with cash, what is your remedy? And if the reason you need a third-party is just to resolve disputes, then what's stopping to have other companies that do nothing but the scrow-holding and dispute resolution?

If I pay in cash then I’m physically present. Usually I’m at a store with a reputation to uphold and a set return policy that’s reliable. If I’m transacting with an unknown entity (eg craigslist) then I can at least physically inspect the item. Very different than ordering online.

> Very different than ordering online.

So for these cases you consider a high chance of the counterparty being dishonest, you use the alternative that can give you safeguards. If it makes more sense to use a credit card, you can still use it.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#287

Post by wodenokoto »

busterarm wrote: post #152
tpurves wrote: post #105

What many people don't realize is that the operational and customer service costs of payments don't scale with payment amount. Customers will cost almost just as frequently dispute, have questions, have problems, ask for help, attempt to defraud etc with a $1 transaction as they will a $100 or $1000 transaction. This is the real killer with micro payment schemes. Customer service costs scale more with number of payme…

Yeah, all of the other payment processors have settled on somewhere between 2-4% fees to handle fraud. See PayPal. So either Patreon has an order of magnitude more fraud going on or is massively wasteful in its business operations. Probably both.

Having never paid patronage, I don’t really know, but doesn’t patreon host a lot of content? Or where are all the paid-only content hosted?

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#288

Post by vorpalhex »

rglullis wrote: post #222
vorpalhex wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't trust the customer, don't take their business.

Right, shoplifting doesn't exist. Movie theaters run around profitably by getting people to pay whatever they want. They even let them bring their own food. And banks give you a mortgage just because you look like such a trustworthy dude.

How does crypto solve shoplifting?

Banks do credit worthiness checks as part of business.

Movie theaters actually do keep a banned list and enforce it.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#289

Post by gingerlime »

rglullis wrote: post #215
gingerlime wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or 3DSecure which is becoming very common in Europe. No chargebacks.

3Dsecure helps against criminals try to use the card and makes it harder for customers flag a transaction if they have provided the authorization code. It helps, but does not prevent chargebacks. If you are selling digital goods, a malicious customer could, e.g, make the payment, access the download page of the product and then file a chargeback saying the received product does not match what was advertised.

That’s covered by the right of withdrawal, and is handled between the customer and merchant. But they cannot chargeback but can get a refund.

The idea that crypto solves fraud is laughable, particularly when so much fraud is facilitated by it.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#290

Post by xboxnolifes »

cowtools wrote: post #202
andreyk wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO Patreon exists for creators to create public profile pages on which people can subscribe to support the creator on a recurring basis in return for some perks. It's (IMO) largely succesful on the basis of network effects (once you support one creator on Patreon, the friction to support another is significantly lower). Plenty of creators also have paypal 'tip jars', but I think these are significantly less effectiv…

I think if we had a competitive, cheap and secure-enough micropayments system we could do away with advertisement-based monetization altogether. Creators could host their own videos, blogs, etc. on their own website and just charge a fraction of a cent per pageview or download.

Even if we had a fully government ran, 100% flawless, zero-cost micropayment system, thee majority of people would still not host their own website for their content.
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