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Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

thoughts.jatan.space

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Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#211

Post by cuteboy19 »

viraptor wrote: post #185
cuteboy19 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In India, the cost of instant payments is exactly zero. Additionally, RuPay cards have a Zero MDR which has really really made Visa and MasterCard angry

So what do you pay with? Your transaction data? Subscription to other services?

I actually had the privilege of attending a seminar by the NCPI guys and someone did ask this question. The answer is different for different players in the ecosystem. But fundamentally, the actual cost per transaction is so low that it really does not matter. Visa/MasterCard are rent seeking parasites.

For the apps like GPay and Amazonpay, yes it is data. But of course there is the reference implementation app that does not do any of that. People just prefer the other apps because they offer good cashbacks.

For the banks, it's a service they offer, just like having a website and passbook updation. No customer is going to go to a bank without a website and now the same applies for instant transfer.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#212

Post by devwastaken »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #124
tpurves wrote: post #105

What many people don't realize is that the operational and customer service costs of payments don't scale with payment amount. Customers will cost almost just as frequently dispute, have questions, have problems, ask for help, attempt to defraud etc with a $1 transaction as they will a $100 or $1000 transaction. This is the real killer with micro payment schemes. Customer service costs scale more with number of payme…

Charge backs should also be less of an issue if the purchase is $1. Same with fraud. The stakes are lower the lower the amount. Who cares? It's not worth disputing. Fire the customer if it crosses a threshold.

Organizations are incapable of properly dealing with "firing the customer" in that manner. You're talking about hundreds of office employees with generic technical knowledge. This ultimately ends up in firing the wrong customers, and when those customers end up being big, your company gets a poor reputation and lack of revenue.

Therefore eating the cost is the most profitable outcome.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#213

Post by fartcannon »

deadbunny wrote: post #208
fartcannon wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's about 10x more that I'd consider reasonable for what is effectly hosting a static website and bulletin board. I think we've all just had our expectations blown out of the water by Steam (and the subsequent app stores).

A static website that shows/hides content depending on your subscription level dynamically?

I don't know how to respond to that. That's not a complicated thing to do.

Patreon gets to take the money they take because they've found a good niche, not because their website can do something that all websites have been able to do since the 1990s.

I personally think they take too much for what they provide. That's all. I am very happy they exist, though, because otherwise everyone would just be chasing the algorithm.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#214

Post by abnercoimbre »

sokoloff wrote: post #176
abnercoimbre wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use DonorBox for supporters of my indie conference [0] and I have a healthy revenue stream (would be healthier if I had a Patreon.) Is that an OK choice given your preferences? It seems low friction, with the caveat that you have to remember my random website URL. [0] https://handmade-seattle.com/donate

I poked at your site's donation functions. For me personally, if I was doing a one-time donation, that flow seems fine and something that wouldn't block me for a one-time. For a recurring donation, the hover over "A donor account is created automatically for recurring donations. Account setup info will be emailed to you." would remind me the hassle of using a random extra account that I need to keep track of, trust t…

Thanks for the feedback. Indeed I'm not capturing the supporters with your concerns.

However, I get immediate cash access to a donation (recurring or otherwise), and almost everyone covers the transaction fee. This feels less centralized and gimicky than Patreon -- at the cost of losing sokoloff.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#215

Post by rglullis »

gingerlime wrote: post #189
rglullis wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am talking from the perspective of the merchant . Imagine bogus chargebacks because of buyer's remorse or purchases done with stolen credit cards. None of this happens for a merchant that accepts crypto.

Or 3DSecure which is becoming very common in Europe. No chargebacks.

3Dsecure helps against criminals try to use the card and makes it harder for customers flag a transaction if they have provided the authorization code. It helps, but does not prevent chargebacks. If you are selling digital goods, a malicious customer could, e.g, make the payment, access the download page of the product and then file a chargeback saying the received product does not match what was advertised.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#216

Post by viraptor »

cuteboy19 wrote: post #211
viraptor wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you pay with? Your transaction data? Subscription to other services?

I actually had the privilege of attending a seminar by the NCPI guys and someone did ask this question. The answer is different for different players in the ecosystem. But fundamentally, the actual cost per transaction is so low that it really does not matter. Visa/MasterCard are rent seeking parasites. For the apps like GPay and Amazonpay, yes it is data. But of course there is the reference implementation app that…

I hope it works out in the long run. I've seen a version of "banks do payments" before and while it started well, other banks started doing their own thing with quality degrading, and merchants needing to support more options. Until we got to the absurdity of "here's a grid of 30 bank icons, try to find yours"...

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#217

Post by [deleted] »

e-clinton wrote: post #206
tpurves wrote: post #105

What many people don't realize is that the operational and customer service costs of payments don't scale with payment amount. Customers will cost almost just as frequently dispute, have questions, have problems, ask for help, attempt to defraud etc with a $1 transaction as they will a $100 or $1000 transaction. This is the real killer with micro payment schemes. Customer service costs scale more with number of payme…

The reason to have fees as a percentage vs a flat fee isn’t because costs scale with payment amounts, it’s because it’s a more fair way to levy fees. I can either charge everyone $3/transaction, even if the transaction itself is less than or equal to $3, or I can structure it as a percentage to encourage smaller transactions. If people think Patreon is making a killing with their fee structure, they should build a co…

[deleted]

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#218

Post by finfinfin »

cowtools wrote: post #199
deanCommie wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patreon is also more than a payment processor. OP even calls this out - they like having different membership tiers. They're a content host for exclusive images. (Videos do tend to be offsite as unlisted Youtube videos)

So they also provide a service that imgur, catbox.moe, google drive, and others do for free?

Yes. Creators should upload content to Imgur and ask supporters to pay them directly through PayPal. That’s a fantastic alternative to Patreon.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#219

Post by vorpalhex »

rglullis wrote: post #179
omegalulw wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And these systems exist because sellers do fraud too, merchants that don't ship after taking payment, etc. With irreversible payments through crypto you are just pushing all the risk on customers. That will never fly.

If the customer does not trust the merchant, they simply don't make the payment with crypto . Why, oh why is it so hard to understand the concept of multiple alternatives ?

If you don't trust the customer, don't take their business.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#220

Post by vorpalhex »

rglullis wrote: post #181
janosdebugs wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because crypto doesn't offer chargebacks doesn't mean that the customer is not legally entitled to a refund. Depending on the jurisdiction of the merchant and the customer there are a number of scenarios where the merchant is legally obliged to providing a refund. For example, in Germany when a minor makes the purchase, the transaction may be invalid and the merchant has to refund the money.

If a refund is legitimate, the merchant can go on to void the purchase and initiate a refund. The point is not to have a system of final purchases , but final payments .

I sue you. The court demands you appear and return the payment. The Merchant says "No! This was crypto! No give backsies".

The Merchant will discover that the state does in fact have finality on the movement of value.

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