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Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

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Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#241

Post by [deleted] »

newbie2020 wrote: post #237
fartcannon wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how to respond to that. That's not a complicated thing to do. Patreon gets to take the money they take because they've found a good niche, not because their website can do something that all websites have been able to do since the 1990s. I personally think they take too much for what they provide. That's all. I am very happy they exist, though, because otherwise everyone would just be chasing the algorit…

“Not because their website can do something that all websites have been able to do since the 1990s”. That is describing most money-making websites in existence

[deleted]

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#242

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

deanCommie wrote: post #182
tpurves wrote: post #105

What many people don't realize is that the operational and customer service costs of payments don't scale with payment amount. Customers will cost almost just as frequently dispute, have questions, have problems, ask for help, attempt to defraud etc with a $1 transaction as they will a $100 or $1000 transaction. This is the real killer with micro payment schemes. Customer service costs scale more with number of payme…

Patreon is also more than a payment processor. OP even calls this out - they like having different membership tiers. They're a content host for exclusive images. (Videos do tend to be offsite as unlisted Youtube videos)

Patreon is a relationship processor that handles some elements of some relationships with content hosting and payment processing.

I don't think it's unreasonable to distinguish between what Patreon does and basic PP. Users are paying for access to the package - which includes removal of PP friction - not just for a basic PP service.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#243

Post by rglullis »

luma wrote: post #235
rglullis wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am talking from the perspective of the merchant . Imagine bogus chargebacks because of buyer's remorse or purchases done with stolen credit cards. None of this happens for a merchant that accepts crypto.

From the point of view of the merchant, crypto is riddled with fraud: https://www.pcgamer.com/50-of-transactions-were-fraudulent-w... If crypto truly solved all the problems you claim it solves, I think it’s reasonable for the major online marketplaces and vendors to have already switched over. I’ll note that they haven’t, and the state of the overall crypto market in the past few weeks suggests one good reason why.

I'd really like that more information was provided in the article. What is he counting as a "fraudulent transaction"?

> If crypto truly solved all the problems (...) vendors would have already switched over.

Transaction fees are not solved yet.

UX is not solved yet.

Privacy is not solved yet. (Well, it is if you count Monero, but for commerce you need a stabletoken, and you can not easily build a stabletoken on Monero like you can do it in Ethereum. In Ethereum we can have the stabletokens and privacy solutions are being built)

On-ramping is getting solved: it's relatively easy to get fiat-to-crypto today, though I'd say that the current players charging 3% are already at the limit of how they can go, and it's still too high.

There are still plenty of challenges and things to work on to get crypto as a viable alternative for payment networks.

> the state of the overall crypto market

The troubles in the current market have little-to-no relation with the story about crypto for payments. If this crash is going to get us rid of the stupid fools gambling their money in "investment opportunities" and it wipes out the nefarious scumbags who were selling ridiculous promises, all the better.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#244

Post by pixl97 »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #234
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stakes are lower the lower the amount. Who cares? OP mentioned customer service. Pretty much any American can create 50+ hours of customer support and legal work for no reason at all in payments. Even an irate, clueless customer will waste an hour of your support staffs’ time.

Just give them their money back and shadow ban them from using your store.

And then you get the HN post about you banning some rather well known tech figure because when your system created the issue in the first place.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#245

Post by pixl97 »

rglullis wrote: post #178
brendanyounger wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having run a B2C business with recurring monthly payments around $15, I assure you that fraud goes UP with lower payment amounts. You preferentially attract the worst possible customers who bank with the lowest common denominator banks and they charge back like crazy. Some choice moments: "Please keep my service on, I only charged back because I needed to make rent this month", "I know that wasn't my card, but that b…

Thank you for your comment, for a moment I thought I was crazy to believe that it can make sense to have a payment system where merchants are protected. When I say the majority of anti-crypto people are privileged, it's because of this. They never got to experience life in a world where people nickel-and-dime on a 5 dollar purchase. They can not even conceive of a world where "evil" business owners have legitimate re…

There are a few million(?) businesses in the world. There are at least 8 billion people in the world. Your average individual isn't going to adopt a payment scheme that protects businesses at the expense of themselves.

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#246

Post by mensetmanusman »

pixl97 wrote: post #244
mensetmanusman wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just give them their money back and shadow ban them from using your store.

And then you get the HN post about you banning some rather well known tech figure because when your system created the issue in the first place.

Stores can ban patrons that aren’t following specific rules :)

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#247

Post by scatters »

vorpalhex wrote: post #219
rglullis wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the customer does not trust the merchant, they simply don't make the payment with crypto . Why, oh why is it so hard to understand the concept of multiple alternatives ?

If you don't trust the customer, don't take their business.

So people with low social capital should do what, starve?

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#248

Post by moneywoes »

brendanyounger wrote: post #133
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charge backs should also be less of an issue if the purchase is $1. Same with fraud. The stakes are lower the lower the amount. Who cares? It's not worth disputing. Fire the customer if it crosses a threshold.

Having run a B2C business with recurring monthly payments around $15, I assure you that fraud goes UP with lower payment amounts. You preferentially attract the worst possible customers who bank with the lowest common denominator banks and they charge back like crazy. Some choice moments: "Please keep my service on, I only charged back because I needed to make rent this month", "I know that wasn't my card, but that b…

Have you explored any crypto payments for this purpose?

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#249

Post by scatters »

rglullis wrote: post #187
bryanlarsen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every retailer with a median transaction size under $20 hates credit cards. Yet with rare exception they all take cards. The customer chooses the mechanism, not the merchant. To best credit cards you'll have to be more customer friendly.

Come to Berlin and marvel at how many cash-only shops we have. And if you are talking about internet retailers, can we make an exercise to think of how many new businesses would be viable if transactions of 20 cents were a thing?

Why is that? Is Berlin more prone to credit card fraud than usual for Europe?

Re: Patreon cuts deep inside creators’ pockets

#250

Post by acchow »

e-clinton wrote: post #206
tpurves wrote: post #105

What many people don't realize is that the operational and customer service costs of payments don't scale with payment amount. Customers will cost almost just as frequently dispute, have questions, have problems, ask for help, attempt to defraud etc with a $1 transaction as they will a $100 or $1000 transaction. This is the real killer with micro payment schemes. Customer service costs scale more with number of payme…

The reason to have fees as a percentage vs a flat fee isn’t because costs scale with payment amounts, it’s because it’s a more fair way to levy fees. I can either charge everyone $3/transaction, even if the transaction itself is less than or equal to $3, or I can structure it as a percentage to encourage smaller transactions. If people think Patreon is making a killing with their fee structure, they should build a co…

How are you defining "more fair"?

By having the larger transactions subsidize the smaller transactions, how is that "more fair"?

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