Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants • Hacker News Board

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#201

Post by 0daystock » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

blindmute wrote: post #188

0daystock wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all very bad recommendations. Buttermilk is loaded with cholesterol and saturated fat, kombucha with sugar, and fermented vegetables like kimchi have shown to increase prostate adenocarcinoma. You want to regulate your gut flora with a variety of whole plant-based foods, not quick fixes like pills and a jar of stinky cabbage.

> milk is loaded with cholesterol and saturated fat Neither of these are bad for you, just don't be obese > kombucha with sugar Every bottle of kombucha I have ever seen has at most 16g of non-added sugar from fruits, the same as a banana > fermented vegetables like kimchi have shown to increase prostate adenocarcinoma Fake / trash science. More studies say the opposite than agree with this

> Neither of these are bad for you, just don't be obese

Every nutritional authority in the world disagrees.

> Every bottle of kombucha I have ever seen has at most 16g of non-added sugar from fruits, the same as a banana

Right, sugar from a drink and banana are identical, even though only one has fiber. What mental gymnastics!

> Fake / trash science. More studies say the opposite than agree with this

Why didn't you cite them?

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#202

Post by zackmorris » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

barrysteve wrote: post #150

zackmorris wrote: post #138

I finally beat my digestive issues and chronic fatigue (physical depression) which lasted 3+ years from 2019-2021. Without getting too far into it, here's the stuff that finally worked, weighted by immediacy on a scale of 10: - 10: Eating a serving of Brussels sprouts, preferably daily - 10: Taking about 3 psyllium husk capsules occasionally with FODMAP and spicy meals - 10: Taking a digestive enzyme occasionally wit…

- 6: Taking an iodine supplement initially, a few times per week until the bottle was gone Iodine related to hypothyroidism?

Sorry, I should have added some details to this one. My eyebrows had mostly fallen out by the end of 2018, and my dad (a dentist) pointed out that maybe my iodine levels were low. That used to be really common a century ago before iodized salt, and many of my elderly family members have had thyroid issues.

I took "thyroid energy" (NOW Foods, no affiliation) which has some additional micronutrients like selenium and felt shockingly better within just a few days.

Evidently gluten can sensitize the immune system into fighting proteins in the thyroid. Also Hashimoto's thyroiditis can cause the thyroid to spike up and down so it gets missed in yearly screenings. And celiac disease plays into it too. And it didn't help that where I live in Idaho had radiation levels 80 times higher than normal after Fukushima. Hormones are so powerful and glands are so sensitive to the environment that it doesn't take much to disrupt them. Also trace minerals like cobalt have been depleted from soils, but are involved with vitamin B12 which prevents anemia. I think that my high consumption of beans and foods high in anti-nutrients might have bound up minerals and made me deficient, even though I was eating plenty and working out.

Anyway, I was tested and my thyroid is fine, but it's important to remember that gluten is inflammatory for everyone. Even sugar and alcohol are inflammatory. So someone can get symptoms whose cause is difficult to isolate, even if their tests come back negative.

But I'm angry/concerned that I had to derive this information myself over several years. Why is this not one of the top news stories, when hypothyroidism and obesity are rampant? I blame the Big Ag lobby, factory farming and the passion with which people believe the mainstream news.

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#203

Post by zackmorris » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 4:06 PM UTC

mrharrison wrote: post #145

zackmorris wrote: post #138

I finally beat my digestive issues and chronic fatigue (physical depression) which lasted 3+ years from 2019-2021. Without getting too far into it, here's the stuff that finally worked, weighted by immediacy on a scale of 10: - 10: Eating a serving of Brussels sprouts, preferably daily - 10: Taking about 3 psyllium husk capsules occasionally with FODMAP and spicy meals - 10: Taking a digestive enzyme occasionally wit…

I had similar issues. I went and saw a functional medicine doctor, had a stool test and he diagnosed me with candida overgrowth. Which may be what you had. Here is the diet protocol for beating back candida, which is similar to the diet you put yourself on. https://www.thecandidadiet.com/

Thank you, I suspect that I had a chronic infection of some kind like that. I'm leaving out a lot of details about my experience, because it's private and I lost hope several times. I want to stress that my self-medication and self-diagnosis prolonged my suffering. So please if anyone is reading this, see a doctor. They can run these tests and many more:

  Antimitochondrial antibodies (AMA)
  Baylisascaris Procyonis intestinal roundworm
  Celiac
  Epstein Barr virus
  Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency EPI
  Find a medication that does what ashwaghanda does (like Wellbutrin?)
  H. Pylori
  Hashimoto’s
  Lactose intolerance
  Lyme disease
  Parasites
  SIBO
  Testosterone level
  Thyroid level
  Wheat sensitivity tests: 1) wheat allergy 2) celiac 3) non-celiac gluten sensitivity 4) non-celiac wheat sensitivity 5) non-celiac wheat intolerance
  Worms

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#204

Post by zackmorris » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 4:26 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #162

jstx1 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So difficult to pick out which part of this had what effect though.

Or none of it had any effect, and something psychological or undiagnosed was resolved. It's a completely meaningless list for us and (possibly) for OP.

I understand that you're both skeptical, as you should be.

My theory now is that ADHD is tied to diet and environment.

So basically what happened was, my psyche was already vulnerable to anxiety and depression when it got coopted by my physical health issues. I struggled chronically to make an appointment to see a doctor for years, always letting work and family obligations take priority, which prolonged and exacerbated my suffering. This all happened while I was broke and out of work too. After years of being gaslit about my instincts, going all the way back to childhood. That's why I didn't listen to my intuition and just take care of myself. I still thought there was nothing wrong with me, so projected my false confidence onto the world by blaming it for my problems.

Please view the list I posted more as leads than evidence. Also you're right, none of what I posted really applied to me until I hit 40, except maybe the general health advice about drinking more water and eating better. I do worry about leading people astray in their own journeys.

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#205

Post by DantesKite » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 7:00 PM UTC

jollybean wrote: post #161

DantesKite wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can give some context for what may have happened because I went through something similar. My two cents is the biggest factors were the keto and the stress. A low carb, high fat diet does not traditionally feature intact plant cell walls, or what we otherwise know as "fiber". There are literally thousands of different of variations of "fiber" of which we have catalogued only a few, but these structures feed the mic…

"Through much, much trial and error and a lot of scientific article research, I've found the most consistent way to ..." etc.. Unless one has done proper, randomized, medical trials, I don't see how anyone could use such unambiguous language. These n=1 experiences lacking in objectivity and also likely proper measures might help us discover new ground for things that might work (i.e. the basis for a trail), but witho…

You remind me of those doctors that needed clinical evidence to prove babies don't feel pain during surgery lol.

But I will say, everything I've said lines up with the scientific literature, so I can have my cake and eat it too, backed by both personal experience (skin in the game) and an informed understanding of the biochemistry at play and randomized, controlled trials with large populations.

If you're curious, and not just trying to nitpick out of a deep, misplaced sense of cyncism, I highly recommended diving into the literature and doing some reading.

Elicit.org is one of my favorite tools for gathering information, although the "Takeaways" can be sometimes be wrong so I highly recommend reading the abstract too.

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#206

Post by assttoasstmgr » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 8:35 PM UTC

chasebank wrote: post #53

SaintGhurka wrote: post #21

Sample size of 1 here, but just hear me out. Probiotics are a cheap and low-risk. If you have any general inflammation type issues that don't seem to have a cause, it might be worthwhile to just try probiotics. My Dr. told me to try them for a digestive issue - and they sort of helped that. But a handful of other things unexpectedly improved. Acid reflux went from really bad to barely noticeable, and my skin really c…

I have a sample size of 1 as well. Probiotics didn’t help me but I’ve dealt with digestive issues for the last 4 years after a bout of food poisoning. I used to think gut flora / microbiome was quackery but I recently did an oral FMT (fecal microbiata transplant) the results were unreal. For reference, I’m a 37 y/o fit male and donor was 18 y/o female. After 2nd week I got the deepest sleep since I was a child (slept…

Do you think you would have slept like a baby if you knew the donor was a longshoreman that looked like Larry the Cable Guy as opposed to an 18 y/o woman? The way you describe the details with such fervor I'm surprised you didn't ask the doctor to skip the trouble encapsulating the sample in pill form and offered to dispense it yourself. In all seriousness I wonder if there isn't a subtle psychological effect that isn't being taken into account here.

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#207

Post by emptysongglass » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 3:01 AM UTC

chasebank wrote: post #53

SaintGhurka wrote: post #21

Sample size of 1 here, but just hear me out. Probiotics are a cheap and low-risk. If you have any general inflammation type issues that don't seem to have a cause, it might be worthwhile to just try probiotics. My Dr. told me to try them for a digestive issue - and they sort of helped that. But a handful of other things unexpectedly improved. Acid reflux went from really bad to barely noticeable, and my skin really c…

I have a sample size of 1 as well. Probiotics didn’t help me but I’ve dealt with digestive issues for the last 4 years after a bout of food poisoning. I used to think gut flora / microbiome was quackery but I recently did an oral FMT (fecal microbiata transplant) the results were unreal. For reference, I’m a 37 y/o fit male and donor was 18 y/o female. After 2nd week I got the deepest sleep since I was a child (slept…

I got in touch but he is reluctant to recommend a dosage, order size etc. presumably for legal reasons.

How much did you order, were they prepackaged capsules, did you go on an antibiotic regimen ahead of time? I'm not sure if I want to take a chance at 1400 for a month that things rebound to the way they are now but I'm desperate.

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#208

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 3:29 AM UTC

0daystock wrote: post #201

blindmute wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> milk is loaded with cholesterol and saturated fat Neither of these are bad for you, just don't be obese > kombucha with sugar Every bottle of kombucha I have ever seen has at most 16g of non-added sugar from fruits, the same as a banana > fermented vegetables like kimchi have shown to increase prostate adenocarcinoma Fake / trash science. More studies say the opposite than agree with this

> Neither of these are bad for you, just don't be obese Every nutritional authority in the world disagrees. > Every bottle of kombucha I have ever seen has at most 16g of non-added sugar from fruits, the same as a banana Right, sugar from a drink and banana are identical, even though only one has fiber. What mental gymnastics! > Fake / trash science. More studies say the opposite than agree with this Why didn't you c…

[deleted]

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#209

Post by blindmute » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 3:33 AM UTC

0daystock wrote: post #197

blindmute wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow I remain skeptical that the dairy (and meat) that humans have been eating for literally tens of thousands of years is causing depression and widespread health concerns. I think it's a wee bit more likely that when you're morbidly obese with diabetes, like in that study, and you feel better after eating a controlled, healthy, low-calorie diet, it can be attributed to factors more relevant than veganism.

> humans have been eating for literally tens of thousands of years is causing depression and widespread health concerns They literally haven't eaten meat, dairy and eggs 3-5x per day. This is a new phenomenon in the last half-century. And to go back even further, our biochemistry is millions of years old, and is frugivorous in nature. We have no physical adaptations to eating meat. We only started doing it recently a…

> We have no physical adaptations to eating meat.

How curious that we are so perfectly able to digest it and thrive from it! I wonder why so many other herbivores didn't get so lucky.

> Plant-based foods are naturally low in fat, which is calorie dense, so such a diet is in fact ideal for weight loss.

Yes, of course a low calorie diet is ideal for weight loss. What does this have to do with cows milk yogurt? Are you an obese diabetic? If not, I don't see the relevance between your links and the avoidance of milk.

Re: Probiotics can support the effect of antidepressants

#210

Post by jollybean » Sun, Jun 19, 2022, 6:07 AM UTC

DantesKite wrote: post #205

jollybean wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Through much, much trial and error and a lot of scientific article research, I've found the most consistent way to ..." etc.. Unless one has done proper, randomized, medical trials, I don't see how anyone could use such unambiguous language. These n=1 experiences lacking in objectivity and also likely proper measures might help us discover new ground for things that might work (i.e. the basis for a trail), but witho…

You remind me of those doctors that needed clinical evidence to prove babies don't feel pain during surgery lol. But I will say, everything I've said lines up with the scientific literature, so I can have my cake and eat it too, backed by both personal experience (skin in the game) and an informed understanding of the biochemistry at play and randomized, controlled trials with large populations. If you're curious, an…

You remind me of the legions of people on the internet who think they have understood or discovered something due to dubious interpretation of relationships which are non-causal, especially among application of self care or care of others.

I have a colleague who hands out TCM 'remedies' every day, she and her patients all believe they work, in the medical sense, in a very rational way.

Even though 'Western Medicine' has a pretty good foundation, it's layered in complexity and ambiguity.

So if someone had some recurrent, acute issue, that was solved with some diet or action change that was discernibly impactful - maybe. That would be worthy of note.

For example: "I had chronic fatigue - mostly we changed my diet to low carbs, no alcohol, regular sleeping and basic cardio + vitamin D due to deficiency and within a few months it was gone". That rings reasonable.

But 'these are 10 things that worked' raises many red flags.

I've had CFS myself - and ran the gambit of different angles of attack on it, and it's a tricky set of symptoms that doesn't even represent a verifiable ailment: CFS, lethargy etc. is the result of a bunch of different things which we do not even fully understand.

More important note what I just said: 'symptoms' not an 'underlying condition'. There are multiple things that cause them. Even the notion of treating 'symptoms' before arriving at a proper diagnosis is a pretty giant red flag.

Some of symptoms described could feasibly be the result of forms of ulcers, cancer, HIV, iron deficiency, kidney problems, liver problems, adrenal gland problems, gluten intolerance etc. etc..

So no - we don't just go to 'Probiotics and Vitamin D' - necessarily.

Personally - getting rid of energy drinks and sleeping a regular schedule 'cured' me but it's rather impossible to tell what did what. But merely seeking medical advice, and knowing it was not 'something serious' (like Cancer) was a huge load off my shoulders, which can affect recovery dramatically. In fact, I literally started feeling better the day I knew I wasn't dying. But that's just me.

If someone is feeling tired consistently and it's clearly not due to some obvious event or issue - then they should !! see a doctor !! and go from there.