Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

sasymphony.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 86 posts

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#41

Post by kube-system »

croes wrote: post #40
kube-system wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$70,000 is a full time salary at a relatively successful symphony in a large city. It’s the symphonic musician’s equivalent of making it into the big leagues. Many more are part time and pay far far less. I have a family member who has played in a couple different mid sized city professional orchestras. If you consider preparation and rehearsal time, the pay for either of them equates to less than minimum wage.

From the provided link "Comparably reports that the average annual pay for a U.S. orchestra member is $69,86"

I know what it says. I am saying it is misleading. There is no way that is correct for anything but a full time role. The vast majority of professional orchestras are part time and pay far less.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#42

Post by toyg »

cperciva wrote: post #38
gremlinsinc wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's stopping the entire union from starting their own symphony as a co-op. I mean there's a lot of unemployed musicians in San Antonio now.... They can drop the baggage (the board of directors), hire a marketing consultant and some ancillary staff, and maybe do other things with the arts in the area.

What's stopping the entire union from starting their own symphony as a co-op. The AFM won't let them. Members aren't allowed to take gigs which pay less than union-defined minimum rates. In many cases they're not even allowed to donate their services to non-profits; the closest they're allowed to do is to get paid, remit union dues, and donate cash to the non-profit.

The AFM is not god - what's the worst that a union can do, expel a member? And then that member is free to work as he pleases.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#43

Post by bell-cot »

Animats wrote: post #33

Here's management's final offer:[1] The Symphony Society, which governs the local symphony through a board of trustees and management, made a “Last, Best and Final” offer on September 13. That offer would: - Cut the number of full-time symphony musicians from 72 to 42. - Reduce the symphony season length from 31 weeks to 26 weeks. - Slash the salaries of full-time musicians from roughly $36,000 a year to $24,000. - H…

Reading further down in the article you cite - talking about this as a labor vs. management battle pushes a lot of people's buttons, but that's just an emotional side-show.

The Real Story: An organization had neither enough income to survive, nor good prospects of improving that situation. So it died.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#44

Post by mind-blight »

Animats wrote: post #33

Here's management's final offer:[1] The Symphony Society, which governs the local symphony through a board of trustees and management, made a “Last, Best and Final” offer on September 13. That offer would: - Cut the number of full-time symphony musicians from 72 to 42. - Reduce the symphony season length from 31 weeks to 26 weeks. - Slash the salaries of full-time musicians from roughly $36,000 a year to $24,000. - H…

Thanks for grabbing the numbers. I have a good friend who's in the union for my hometown's theater. Hearing his stories over the past few years have made me deeply suspicious of anything posted by management that boils down to "we're shutting down because the union is being unreasonable."

It's a completely different world than tech, and some of the managerial incompetence that's blamed on the union (and before it was formed, the lowest paid workers) is astounding.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#45

Post by imgabe »

pSYoniK wrote: post #26

I fully agree with drewcoo's comment. I cannot believe the discussions occurring here surrounding professional musicians, people who have trained for years to hone their skills. I cannot believe that the attitude towards a union -"wouldn't they all be better now since they'd still be employed"? These are statements made by someone who never had to face the reality of the fact that sometimes a job offers so little mon…

What would be your preferred alternative?

Should the symphony pay them all six-figure salaries until it becomes insolvent, and then closes anyway?

I'm not sure what you want to happen here.

It seems like the people of San Antonio are not interested in paying for a symphony. That's their prerogative. Many cities don't have a symphony. There's a great many goods and services that take years of skill to master that I don't pay for because I don't want them.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#46

Post by mind-blight »

bell-cot wrote: post #43
Animats wrote: post #33

Here's management's final offer:[1] The Symphony Society, which governs the local symphony through a board of trustees and management, made a “Last, Best and Final” offer on September 13. That offer would: - Cut the number of full-time symphony musicians from 72 to 42. - Reduce the symphony season length from 31 weeks to 26 weeks. - Slash the salaries of full-time musicians from roughly $36,000 a year to $24,000. - H…

Reading further down in the article you cite - talking about this as a labor vs. management battle pushes a lot of people's buttons, but that's just an emotional side-show. The Real Story: An organization had neither enough income to survive, nor good prospects of improving that situation. So it died.

Given the letter written by the board, I think it's fair to discuss. At the very least, the board is trying to save face by blaming the shutdown on "the union being unreasonable". That always makes me suspicious about the details being left out.

The nuances around went it died are also important. Could it have been saved with a different managerial approach? That's especially relevant for a cultural institution.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#47

Post by natch »

Fatnino wrote: post #6
josephcsible wrote: post #4

If the musicians weren't unionized, wouldn't they all be better off right now since they'd still be employed?

No, they'd be stuck working for not enough money instead of looking for actual livable jobs like they are now and likely have been doing for the duration of the strike.

Stuck?

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#48

Post by natch »

bergenty wrote: post #20
azinman2 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either way, they’re shutting down. That’s not really a bargaining tactic. It’s failure mode.

No it’s a bargaining tactic. We won’t work for a dismal wage. It makes a statement. This failure is worth a lot.

I thought it was "we won't pay you money we don't have" (also: ...for a passion project that many do for free, including likely most of the board members and volunteer staff).

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#49

Post by lelag »

Classical music and symphonic orchestras have always been expensive endeavours requiring a healthy influx of money. Before the 20th century that support was coming almost exclusively from patronage. With the advent of the recording industry, a large influx of money from record sales allowed to develop a large industry around western classical music supporting many performers and orchestras.

The subscription model that has replaced album purchase has now destroyed the revenue stream for the classical industry. To make matter worse, most recordings from the last 50 years were recorded with great qualities making it hard for new recordings to stand out: you are effectively competing with huge catalog of high quality music available for next to nothing on the mainstream streaming services.

The end result is that orchestral formation are now back to be being dependant on donated money (individual donation, corporate patronage and public funds).

Genre requiring a single or few performers will probably be fine, but orchestras are so expensive due to the number of people involved they have no chance to make enough money just performing.

We should not be surprised to see more of lower tiers orchestra disappearing in the coming years.

Re: The Board of Directors Announces the Dissolution of the San Antonio Symphony

#50

Post by tinus_hn »

lelag wrote: post #49

Classical music and symphonic orchestras have always been expensive endeavours requiring a healthy influx of money. Before the 20th century that support was coming almost exclusively from patronage. With the advent of the recording industry, a large influx of money from record sales allowed to develop a large industry around western classical music supporting many performers and orchestras. The subscription model tha…

Obviously two years of lockdowns had nothing to do with it!
Post reply on HN