Live data from Hacker News

A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

nytimes.com

301–310 of 582 posts

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#301
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really... I love to bash Google as much as anyone but a religious cult within a department within a massive corporation doesn't really mean much about the company as a whole. Especially when you could pretty clearly see the difference between cult's teachings and the public stances for women's rights and for same-sex marriages that many Google employees have taken.

A modern religious ethnographer would distinguish between NRMs (new religious movements) and the minority thereof that are actually criminal, coercive, etc., as the term "cult" has come to imply. That said, NRMs aren't always free of toxicity. Pyramid schemes and actual cults often target them, exploiting a high-trust network of people considered to be gullible. The typical corporate "cult"--I don't think Google is a…

Excuse me if I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that the FoF falls under the more pejorative sense of cult, rather than NRM, given the central role of leadership and the abuses of power. It seems distinct from, say, neo-paganism in that sense.

If you're referring to the parent comment's description of Google, then there's really no point in trying to make a distinction, since they were using it as a polemic anyways. That said, I don't think describing capitalism as the cult is necessarily useful either, in that it implies a reliance on _active_ belief and conscious performance of rituals which doesn't seem to be the case. It seems to me that the more useful framework is Fisher's capitalist realism, which more accurately describes this neoliberal end of history that inspires so much pessimism (and a more Foucaultian sense of power which is pervasive and defines the discursive space, rather than religious, which identifies a moral power within entities). Regardless, theorizing endlessly on capitalism is probably not going to solve actual issues of corporate overreach and abuses of power, so it's infinitely easier to just call Google a cult and hope it shifts public opinion and motivates political action lmao.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#302

I think a key point maybe getting missed here is that cults do not want their members to leave. In Digital Vegan I wrote a short chapter about cults in tech, or rather the "cults of tech". Facebook is one (for the users not employees). Emotional blackmail and tricks are used to keep people from leaving. Here it seems withdrawing membership is a threat to enforce behaviours, as in many secret/privileged societies, hen…

> cults do not want their members to leave It doesn't necessarily work this way. For example, some cults get rid of members after they stop being useful (able to pay money or work for the cult). If you get burned out or seriously sick, if you get unemployed, and if you already donated all your savings to the cult... then you become a burden. The group will kick you out under some pretext, e.g. accuse you of being an…

Fair enough, You make some good points (that I actually mention in my chapter, informed by someone who escaped a cult). But you're right, the threat to expel is another lever for control.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#304
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not really sure what the big deal is. Did the cult hurt this fellow? Abuse him? Discriminate against him? Mob him? No. The article really just talks about his own disapproval of the cult. >It wasn't his business what these people got up to, frankly. Quoting the article: "The group is well-documented: There are allegations of child abuse, human trafficking, forced abortions, and rape within the group, which has some…

> Quoting the article: > "The group is well-documented: There are allegations of child abuse, human trafficking, forced abortions, and rape within the group, which has some 1,500 members worldwide and makes frequent prophecies of an imminent apocalypse." Those seem like issues for prosecutors to pursue, not for Google, unless the abuses were happening in Google offices or were sponsored by them.

> Those seem like issues for prosecutors to pursue, not for Google, unless the abuses were happening in Google offices or were sponsored by them.

I'm glad someone else gets my point. These were all someone else's problems to deal with, but this guy kept sticking his nose in even when he was repeatedly asked by his friend, a manager, to butt out.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#305
The favoritism or vendor corruption is a problem. A problem that's Google's problem if it exists and Google should address if it chooses (probably a good idea but their call).

The sex trafficking charges (or whatever) are a legal problem which government authorities should address (if they exist).

Otherwise, if people want to belong to fringe religious or pseudo religious organizations (aka "cults") that's their business no?

That someone doesn't like the "cult" or considers it harmful has no bearing on if members should be removed from employment. Which (not a lawyer) I doubt is even legal in the US because I believe religious affiliation is protected.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#306

Not really sure what the big deal is. Did the cult hurt this fellow? Abuse him? Discriminate against him? Mob him? No. The article really just talks about his own disapproval of the cult. It wasn't his business what these people got up to, frankly.

> Members have described him grooming and sexually assaulting male followers, including minors,

> At a certain point, he said he had thought about both quitting and complaining up the ladder, but ultimately decided against either. He thought complaining could lead not only to the loss of his job, but the destruction of our whole department. The loss of all our jobs. GDS, in his mind, wasn’t on steady ground. A revelation like this would be its end.

> He instructed me to keep quiet. He told me not to tell anyone and to tell anyone I had already informed to do the same. He reminded me again that if I complained about this, I could lose my job. Strangely, he threw in that “Peter is a powerful guy.” It was unsettling to say the least.

Dan was selfishly worried about his job. Great evil happens when people stay silent.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when it's time to decide who gets to be a full time Googley Googler and who doesn't? This guy is competing against a bunch of people in a literal cult, what are his odds like? Isn't that harm enough?

Is hiring discrimination alleged to have happened? IIRC, the only decision that is noted in the blog post is the promotion of Dan (who is not in the cult), and the mysterious termination (for which we have no context or details, and the author feels it was orchestrated by the aforementioned Dan). While I'm sure there's lots of be concerned about with respect to the cult, I'm not sure it's Google's business to ask abo…

I'm not really a fan of religions or cults, but part of my dislike is the fervent disapproving and interfering with people's lives. Which is exactly what this fellow seemed to be doing. The cult members seemed to be minding their own business and being generally pretty useful and nice. I wonder if his behavior could even have put Google at risk of a religious discrimination case.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they didn’t cover their tracks very well anyways ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I mean they actually told him where they were from (geographically, if not organizationally), so clearly they didn't consider it something that needed to be secret. Which is interesting, because it gives us insight into their way of thinking [1]. They clearly don't consider themselves to be in any way toxic like the author thinks they are. Cults are interes…

The satanic and brainwashing/deprogramming scares of the 80’s changed the way a lot of people use the word, but for the preceding several millennia cult simply suggested: A membership community with secrets and opportunities reserved for members. There are millions of these around us, and we’re all probably members of several. It seems to be pretty normal throughout history. We just don’t acknowledge it as such becau…

It was more like the 70s. High profile stories included mass suicide at the People's Temple led by Jim Jones [1], Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh collecting Rolls Royces and sexual favours from followers, and of course Charles Manson.

[1] Origin of the phrase "Drink the Kool-Aid". More than 900 people did, and died.

Point being cults are not just a club with a few secrets.

Cults are dangerous. They abuse people physically, sexually, psychologically, and financially, and the leaders reliably scam and exploit the followers. Not infrequently there are links to unusually horrific events such as mass murder and mass suicide.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#310

I think a key point maybe getting missed here is that cults do not want their members to leave. In Digital Vegan I wrote a short chapter about cults in tech, or rather the "cults of tech". Facebook is one (for the users not employees). Emotional blackmail and tricks are used to keep people from leaving. Here it seems withdrawing membership is a threat to enforce behaviours, as in many secret/privileged societies, hen…

Interesting. At first I thought this was a pedantic distinction but now I'm getting it: Cliques are exclusive and dispassionate - your will keeps you in a clique. Cults are inclusive and coercive, their will keeps you in the cult. Are there any books one can read about this distinction? Seems like you could arrive at some pretty interesting conclusions if you talk this out.

FWIW these [1,2,3] articles summarise some of the key markers I was interested in while specifically researching Facebook.

[1] https://www.alternet.org/2014/12/8-ways-facebook-cult-just-s...

[2] https://senseimarketing.com/is-facebook-a-modern-day-cult/

[3] https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/facebook-culture-cult-like-...

Post reply on HN