A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit • Hacker News Board

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#211

Post by MonkeyClub » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:26 PM UTC

swatcoder wrote: post #178

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they didn’t cover their tracks very well anyways ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I mean they actually told him where they were from (geographically, if not organizationally), so clearly they didn't consider it something that needed to be secret. Which is interesting, because it gives us insight into their way of thinking [1]. They clearly don't consider themselves to be in any way toxic like the author thinks they are. Cults are interes…

The satanic and brainwashing/deprogramming scares of the 80’s changed the way a lot of people use the word, but for the preceding several millennia cult simply suggested: A membership community with secrets and opportunities reserved for members. There are millions of these around us, and we’re all probably members of several. It seems to be pretty normal throughout history. We just don’t acknowledge it as such becau…

> A membership community with secrets and opportunities reserved for members.

That can also be a guild.

"Cult" is a term from the study of religion (a particular field's jargon, if you will), and usually conveys intense devotion, a ritual or sacrificial dimension that goes beyond a master craftsman's level of devotion to a craft.

Also, a guild can't entertain fanciful ideas about their craft for too long, if the ideas don't work in practice.

The distinction is kind of like using Cobol to build a good solid system (guild), versus dropping some Lisp to reach enlightenment (cult), or using C to build a solid system (cult).

In which case, I'm voting cult all the way.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#212

Post by nonrandomstring » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

I think a key point maybe getting missed here is that cults do not want their members to leave. In Digital Vegan I wrote a short chapter about cults in tech, or rather the "cults of tech". Facebook is one (for the users not employees). Emotional blackmail and tricks are used to keep people from leaving. Here it seems withdrawing membership is a threat to enforce behaviours, as in many secret/privileged societies, hence, as I said in a comment above, this is a clique within Google (of cult members - and probably participants in all sorts of other unsavoury and disgraceful stuff)

Edit: to distinguish membership of Google from membership of the "Fellowship" cult)

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#213

Post by closeparen » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #197

woah wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to hire. I can imagine that "someone in a high enough position" could have a pretty good competitive advantage being able to hire employees of known and consistent competence without having to slog through resumes and interviews. Once there were a few of this group already working, it would also be easier to close hires with the social pressure. I can imagine that higher ups might be inclined to look the ot…

Here's how you articulate it: the odds that the best people for the job all came from the same class at the same university are slim to none.

The odds that you can better assess "best person for the job" from a resume and a few hours of interviews vs. several years of working together are also slim to none.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#214

Post by cool_dude85 » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #210

Not really sure what the big deal is. Did the cult hurt this fellow? Abuse him? Discriminate against him? Mob him? No. The article really just talks about his own disapproval of the cult. It wasn't his business what these people got up to, frankly.

What happens when it's time to decide who gets to be a full time Googley Googler and who doesn't? This guy is competing against a bunch of people in a literal cult, what are his odds like? Isn't that harm enough?

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#215

Post by InefficientRed » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:29 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #150

InefficientRed wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, bot would raise my alarm bells. But a very important difference from the co.'s perspective is that discriminating against non-soccer-players isn't illegal...

It's not that much of a difference, since the only way to get to 90% Manchester United is by discriminating against Liverpool.

No, it's a huge difference. Manchester United fan is not a protected class in the US, but religion is. Hiring or demoting against someone who's not part of your church is Very Illegal in most situations but firing or demoting someone because you disagree with their football preferences is... perhaps psychotic, but totally legal.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#216

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:29 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #197

woah wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to hire. I can imagine that "someone in a high enough position" could have a pretty good competitive advantage being able to hire employees of known and consistent competence without having to slog through resumes and interviews. Once there were a few of this group already working, it would also be easier to close hires with the social pressure. I can imagine that higher ups might be inclined to look the ot…

Here's how you articulate it: the odds that the best people for the job all came from the same class at the same university are slim to none.

In most cases, it’s sufficient to avoid the “people who are a bad fit for the job” rather than needing the “best people for the job”. Deep knowledge acquired via years of working/schooling with them is a much better selector than a half-day of interviewing.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#217

Post by rl3 » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:31 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #210

Not really sure what the big deal is. Did the cult hurt this fellow? Abuse him? Discriminate against him? Mob him? No. The article really just talks about his own disapproval of the cult. It wasn't his business what these people got up to, frankly.

>Not really sure what the big deal is. Did the cult hurt this fellow? Abuse him? Discriminate against him? Mob him? No. The article really just talks about his own disapproval of the cult.

>It wasn't his business what these people got up to, frankly.

Quoting the article:

"The group is well-documented: There are allegations of child abuse, human trafficking, forced abortions, and rape within the group, which has some 1,500 members worldwide and makes frequent prophecies of an imminent apocalypse."

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#218

Post by bena » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #177

bena wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah. I knew they were integrated somehow.

They're not integrated. BSA where I grew up, on the South Side of Chicago, was (for instance) extremely Catholic. "Duty to God" is (or was?) a tenet of the organization, dating back to its founding. In the formative years of the BSA, that wasn't strange at all; what would have been unusual would have been members that weren't in some way affiliated with a religion. In fact, Boy Scouts is how I first learned about a b…

Eh. Bad choice of words I guess. The implication is that the BSA and LDS were tight. Apparently to the point that 1 in every 5 scout was also a Mormon. Which is weird when Mormons account for only about 2 percent of the population at large.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#219

Post by mtlguitarist » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:34 PM UTC

txru wrote: post #203

binbag wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way are cults common in tech?

I believe the parent is referring more to referral/promo networks. For a positive example, I knew one of my senior managers basically brought 15 people from his previous company, to the point where a comfortable majority of people under him were from the company. This can be nefarious when the network arises from abusive or unhealthy environments.

Is this really a positive thing? It creates in-groups and decreases diversity. Sure, it makes hiring easier but this is exactly how you end up with old boys clubs.

Re: A religious sect landed Google in a lawsuit

#220

Post by overkill28 » Thu, Jun 16, 2022, 9:37 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #193

darth_avocado wrote: post #176

I can totally see how this can fly under the radar. "Cults" are common in tech, though not of this type. I've received job offers where entire functions are all people who had worked together at a previous company and not hired through acquisitions. I've had teams where majority of the team is from the same university or class. More than 50% of the team having a common denominator is common and it usually starts with…

It's hard to hire. I can imagine that "someone in a high enough position" could have a pretty good competitive advantage being able to hire employees of known and consistent competence without having to slog through resumes and interviews. Once there were a few of this group already working, it would also be easier to close hires with the social pressure. I can imagine that higher ups might be inclined to look the ot…

The medium article omits it, but the per the NY Times all the employees were actually hired by a contractor:

> He said ASG, not Google, hired contractors for the GDS team, adding that it was fine for him to “encourage people to apply for those roles.” And he said that in recent years, the team has grown to more than 250 people, including part-time employees.